6 ms·

What happened in the past, good or bad, is unchangeable. The only way forward is a colorblind approach as building specific policies around race simply encourag

What happened in the past, good or bad, is unchangeable. The only way forward is a colorblind approach as building specific policies around race simply encourage further racial division and entrenchment. Preventing racial discrimination (a good thing) should not lead into encouraging racial division, but unfortunately our well meaning desire to be equitable often causes that to happen.

baddox 6y ago
> What happened in the past, good or bad, is unchangeable. The only way forward is a colorblind approach as building specific policies around race simply encourage further racial division and entrenchment. Of course that's definitely not the only way forward. You can fix unequal distributions of resources by, well, redistributing the resources, which requires acknowledging the existence of different groups and the history of how those groups have distributed resources among themselves. And note that acknowledging the existence of a social construct that distinguishes people into different groups does not imply condoning that social construct. It's not that radical. If a thief steals my car, the way forward is to recognize who is the thief and who is the victim, and to redistribute the resources accordingly. That does not "simply encourage further division and entrenchment between thieves and victims of theft," or if it does, I think that's okay. We don't say "hey, I'm blind to the differences between thieves and victims, we're all just human beings."
- rukittenme 6y ago
  The problem isn't remediation for an injustice. The problem is the overt and explicitly racial language and philosophy behind your arguments for remediation. The problem is the inability to remediate history. There is no such thing as cosmic justice.
  - baddox 6y ago
    Are you saying that, unlike other injustices where we as a society generally approve of at least attempting to correct the injustice, this particular injustice is unique, and we shouldn't even attempt to remediate? Or do you oppose all attempts to correct past injustices because "cosmic justice" doesn't exist? I don't hope for cosmic justice, I think justice is up to us humans. Nothing about my argument relies on racial language or philosophy, any more than my argument for returning stolen property relies on "'thief'-like language or philosophy." My argument for remediation is simply that the injustice occurred, and I think our society should attempt to correct this past injustice just like other past injustices.
    - rukittenme 6y ago
      > Nothing about my argument relies on racial language or philosophy. It does because you're relying on racial identity to determine who pays and who receives rather than who stole and who was stolen from. The matter of who did what to whom is "settled" in the sense that all parties are dead. > I don't hope for cosmic justice, I think justice is up to us humans. What is your solution to the "stolen land" problem?
      - baddox 6y ago
        > It does because you're relying on racial identity to determine who pays and who receives rather than who stole and who was stolen from. I did not say or imply this.
        rukittenme 6y ago
        The question remains. How do you solve the problem of historical injustice? Focusing specifically on land stolen from Native Americans by European settlers.
        krapp 6y ago
        There probably isn't an easy, simple or universally acceptable answer. But... the US taking its treaty obligations with native peoples as seriously as it does with other nations would be a good start.
        rukittenme 6y ago
        As I said yesterday in our conversation, we are in agreement there but I'm not quite sure it solves the problem. A "good start" isn't a solution to the problem and even the "good start" requires enforcing some form of racial governance model otherwise its just another county of the United States. The situation is at the very least complex and will likely require a "morally impure" solution.
S33V 6y ago
I'd concur, a colorblind approach would have detrimental effects to indigenous people. Colorblindness leads to ignorance and turns a blind eye to the past when working for a fair future. There's a great journal article on this exact subject: Fryberg, S. A., & Stephens, N. M. (2010). When the world is colorblind, American Indians are invisible. Psychological Inquiry, 21, 115-119. doi: 10.1080/1047840X.2010.483847 PDF: https://www.nicolemstephens.com/uploads/3/9/5/9/39596235/34_stephens_when_the_world_is_colorblind_american_indians_are_invisible_a_diversity_science_approach.pdf https://www.nicolemstephens.com/uploads/3/9/5/9/39596235/34_...
throwanem 6y ago
The concept of a colorblind approach ignores the existence of historical context. One might as well take a disability-blind approach to whether buildings need wheelchair ramps.
- hhernandez 6y ago
  People today are generally not limited by the historical context from which they come. Your parents' individual personalities and ability to raise you does matter, but broader historical context matters very little, unless we try to make it so and that generally just causes conflict. People in wheelchairs are on the other hand affected by the presence or absence of wheelchair ramps.
  - minerjoe 6y ago
    Dude, go visit the Pine Ridge Reservation and then come back here and say "prople today are generally not limited by the historical context from which they come. Or the Standing Rock reservation, or ...
    - throwanem 6y ago
      Or your local BLM protest. The Brookings Institution has a good survey of the relevant history, here: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/02/27/examining-the-black-white-wealth-gap/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/02/27/examining...
      - hhernandez 6y ago
        Why does that article not address the most dominant cause of the wealth gap, which is broken homes and blacks dropping out of school, not going to college etc? That's an issue of personal choices more than anything else.
        throwanem 6y ago
        I'd ask for a citation, but I know you're arguing in bad faith. If you were here for an honest debate, you'd act like it.

baddox 6y ago

> What happened in the past, good or bad, is unchangeable. The only way forward is a colorblind approach as building specific policies around race simply encourage further racial division and entrenchment. Of course that's definitely not the only way forward. You can fix unequal distributions of resources by, well, redistributing the resources, which requires acknowledging the existence of different groups and the history of how those groups have distributed resources among themselves. And note that acknowledging the existence of a social construct that distinguishes people into different groups does not imply condoning that social construct. It's not that radical. If a thief steals my car, the way forward is to recognize who is the thief and who is the victim, and to redistribute the resources accordingly. That does not "simply encourage further division and entrenchment between thieves and victims of theft," or if it does, I think that's okay. We don't say "hey, I'm blind to the differences between thieves and victims, we're all just human beings."

rukittenme 6y ago
The problem isn't remediation for an injustice. The problem is the overt and explicitly racial language and philosophy behind your arguments for remediation. The problem is the inability to remediate history. There is no such thing as cosmic justice.
- baddox 6y ago
  Are you saying that, unlike other injustices where we as a society generally approve of at least attempting to correct the injustice, this particular injustice is unique, and we shouldn't even attempt to remediate? Or do you oppose all attempts to correct past injustices because "cosmic justice" doesn't exist? I don't hope for cosmic justice, I think justice is up to us humans. Nothing about my argument relies on racial language or philosophy, any more than my argument for returning stolen property relies on "'thief'-like language or philosophy." My argument for remediation is simply that the injustice occurred, and I think our society should attempt to correct this past injustice just like other past injustices.
  - rukittenme 6y ago
    > Nothing about my argument relies on racial language or philosophy. It does because you're relying on racial identity to determine who pays and who receives rather than who stole and who was stolen from. The matter of who did what to whom is "settled" in the sense that all parties are dead. > I don't hope for cosmic justice, I think justice is up to us humans. What is your solution to the "stolen land" problem?
    - baddox 6y ago
      > It does because you're relying on racial identity to determine who pays and who receives rather than who stole and who was stolen from. I did not say or imply this.
      - rukittenme 6y ago
        The question remains. How do you solve the problem of historical injustice? Focusing specifically on land stolen from Native Americans by European settlers.
        krapp 6y ago
        There probably isn't an easy, simple or universally acceptable answer. But... the US taking its treaty obligations with native peoples as seriously as it does with other nations would be a good start.
        rukittenme 6y ago
        As I said yesterday in our conversation, we are in agreement there but I'm not quite sure it solves the problem. A "good start" isn't a solution to the problem and even the "good start" requires enforcing some form of racial governance model otherwise its just another county of the United States. The situation is at the very least complex and will likely require a "morally impure" solution.

S33V 6y ago

I'd concur, a colorblind approach would have detrimental effects to indigenous people. Colorblindness leads to ignorance and turns a blind eye to the past when working for a fair future. There's a great journal article on this exact subject: Fryberg, S. A., & Stephens, N. M. (2010). When the world is colorblind, American Indians are invisible. Psychological Inquiry, 21, 115-119. doi: 10.1080/1047840X.2010.483847 PDF: https://www.nicolemstephens.com/uploads/3/9/5/9/39596235/34_stephens_when_the_world_is_colorblind_american_indians_are_invisible_a_diversity_science_approach.pdf https://www.nicolemstephens.com/uploads/3/9/5/9/39596235/34_...

throwanem 6y ago

The concept of a colorblind approach ignores the existence of historical context. One might as well take a disability-blind approach to whether buildings need wheelchair ramps.

hhernandez 6y ago
People today are generally not limited by the historical context from which they come. Your parents' individual personalities and ability to raise you does matter, but broader historical context matters very little, unless we try to make it so and that generally just causes conflict. People in wheelchairs are on the other hand affected by the presence or absence of wheelchair ramps.
- minerjoe 6y ago
  Dude, go visit the Pine Ridge Reservation and then come back here and say "prople today are generally not limited by the historical context from which they come. Or the Standing Rock reservation, or ...
  - throwanem 6y ago
    Or your local BLM protest. The Brookings Institution has a good survey of the relevant history, here: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/02/27/examining-the-black-white-wealth-gap/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/02/27/examining...
    - hhernandez 6y ago
      Why does that article not address the most dominant cause of the wealth gap, which is broken homes and blacks dropping out of school, not going to college etc? That's an issue of personal choices more than anything else.
      - throwanem 6y ago
        I'd ask for a citation, but I know you're arguing in bad faith. If you were here for an honest debate, you'd act like it.