7 ms·

The republicans effectively demonised the ACA, even though it was basically the compromise position (as it was quite similar to what Mitt Romney did in Massachu

by colde 6y ago

The republicans effectively demonised the ACA, even though it was basically the compromise position (as it was quite similar to what Mitt Romney did in Massachusetts). I would love some examples of democrats doing that.

wutbrodo 6y ago
Would same-sex civil unions count? Or women and gay people in the military? There are a ton of social issues that society has moved dramatically leftward on; the fact that I agree with them doesn't mean I'm unable to step outside of my biases and understand why a conservative could just as easily make the claim that the left is intransigent.
- dougmany 6y ago
  But we are not seeing further-to-the-left arguments on marriage rights. It's not like now that same-sex people can marry, people are pushing for plural or animal marriage.
  - Kye 6y ago
    There is a movement for polyamorous marriage. A city in Massachusetts just recognized that arrangement for domestic partnerships. I think, like with same-sex marriage, most people would struggle to think of a reason to be against it that isn't rooted in appeals to tradition. https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2020/07/massachusetts-city-begins-legally-recognizing-polyamorous-relationships/ https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2020/07/massachusetts-city-begin... For animals, there's the Harkness Test.
    - jcranmer 6y ago
      Note that the dissent in Obergefell (the case ruling that states had to recognize gay marriage) actually explicitly said "It is striking how much of the majority’s reasoning would apply with equal force to the claim of a fundamental right to plural marriage."
  - newen 6y ago
    Not related to marriage rights but it’s pretty obvious that trans rights is the next big issue that’s being pushed nowadays. There was also that whole forcing businesses to make cakes for gay weddings thing (don’t remember the details but it was a whole controversy about rights of businesses to refuse service vs constraints due to discrimination laws).
  - jlawson 6y ago
    No, they're pushing for free trans surgeries and puberty blockers for kids instead. It doesn't literally have to be the exact same issue over and over.
- digitaltrees 6y ago
  Most of those changes were driven by courts not republicans consent and compromise in legislation.
- fiblye 6y ago
  The above comments are about people in Congress constantly pushing farther right. Congress could've legalized those at any time but didn't. Courts did.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
kec 6y ago
Gun control and the "Gun Show loophole" comes to mind. Avoiding background checks for private transfer was the compromise position for requiring background checks for sales from FFLs.
- lostapathy 6y ago
  Very much this. There hasn't been a gun rights "compromise" (or proposal for one) where democrats gave anything back in congress in ... well never. It's always more restrictions of existing rights. Compromise implies both sides give and take, and in the case of gun rights, democrats have only taken.
  - dougmany 6y ago
    I know a lot of liberal gun owning people. I have a hunch this is like environmental issues. I think many conservative want to support environmental issues but since it clashes with more government control, it get's thrown under the bus.
    - ardy42 6y ago
      > I know a lot of liberal gun owning people. I have a hunch this is like environmental issues. I think many conservative want to support environmental issues but since it clashes with more government control, it get's thrown under the bus. The American political system doesn't support a la carte ordering, it only has prix fixe options. If your priority is some main course, you might not be able to get the side you want with it.
      - efreak 6y ago
        To make things worse, your main course might well be a side course; the thing you want might well be sacrificed for something else.
  - alasdair_ 6y ago
    >Very much this. There hasn't been a gun rights "compromise" (or proposal for one) where democrats gave anything back in congress in ... well never. It's always more restrictions of existing rights. This is actually a very good point. I wonder what the response would be to a Democrat-authored bill that (say) demanded universal background checks and proof of a firearms safety course completion and mandatory insurance like a driver's license that ALSO banned any restrictions on large magazine size and removed any restrictions on fully-automatic weapons, or something similar.
roenxi 6y ago
Putting aside a lot of nuance and complication, both parties have an 'ideal state' in mind. They will make decisions that move the law closer to that ideal state. It'll be happening all the time, neither of them think the ideal state is compromising with the other. And if you want an example of the Democrats doing something similar, maybe the immigration situation? It is also nuanced and complicated, but the appearance isn't that the Democrats are consistently working to uphold the consensus position as found in the law. There is a lot of demonising.

by colde 6y ago

wutbrodo 6y ago

Would same-sex civil unions count? Or women and gay people in the military? There are a ton of social issues that society has moved dramatically leftward on; the fact that I agree with them doesn't mean I'm unable to step outside of my biases and understand why a conservative could just as easily make the claim that the left is intransigent.

dougmany 6y ago
But we are not seeing further-to-the-left arguments on marriage rights. It's not like now that same-sex people can marry, people are pushing for plural or animal marriage.
- Kye 6y ago
  There is a movement for polyamorous marriage. A city in Massachusetts just recognized that arrangement for domestic partnerships. I think, like with same-sex marriage, most people would struggle to think of a reason to be against it that isn't rooted in appeals to tradition. https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2020/07/massachusetts-city-begins-legally-recognizing-polyamorous-relationships/ https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2020/07/massachusetts-city-begin... For animals, there's the Harkness Test.
  - jcranmer 6y ago
    Note that the dissent in Obergefell (the case ruling that states had to recognize gay marriage) actually explicitly said "It is striking how much of the majority’s reasoning would apply with equal force to the claim of a fundamental right to plural marriage."
- newen 6y ago
  Not related to marriage rights but it’s pretty obvious that trans rights is the next big issue that’s being pushed nowadays. There was also that whole forcing businesses to make cakes for gay weddings thing (don’t remember the details but it was a whole controversy about rights of businesses to refuse service vs constraints due to discrimination laws).
- jlawson 6y ago
  No, they're pushing for free trans surgeries and puberty blockers for kids instead. It doesn't literally have to be the exact same issue over and over.
digitaltrees 6y ago
Most of those changes were driven by courts not republicans consent and compromise in legislation.
fiblye 6y ago
The above comments are about people in Congress constantly pushing farther right. Congress could've legalized those at any time but didn't. Courts did.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

kec 6y ago

Gun control and the "Gun Show loophole" comes to mind. Avoiding background checks for private transfer was the compromise position for requiring background checks for sales from FFLs.

lostapathy 6y ago
Very much this. There hasn't been a gun rights "compromise" (or proposal for one) where democrats gave anything back in congress in ... well never. It's always more restrictions of existing rights. Compromise implies both sides give and take, and in the case of gun rights, democrats have only taken.
- dougmany 6y ago
  I know a lot of liberal gun owning people. I have a hunch this is like environmental issues. I think many conservative want to support environmental issues but since it clashes with more government control, it get's thrown under the bus.
  - ardy42 6y ago
    > I know a lot of liberal gun owning people. I have a hunch this is like environmental issues. I think many conservative want to support environmental issues but since it clashes with more government control, it get's thrown under the bus. The American political system doesn't support a la carte ordering, it only has prix fixe options. If your priority is some main course, you might not be able to get the side you want with it.
    - efreak 6y ago
      To make things worse, your main course might well be a side course; the thing you want might well be sacrificed for something else.
- alasdair_ 6y ago
  >Very much this. There hasn't been a gun rights "compromise" (or proposal for one) where democrats gave anything back in congress in ... well never. It's always more restrictions of existing rights. This is actually a very good point. I wonder what the response would be to a Democrat-authored bill that (say) demanded universal background checks and proof of a firearms safety course completion and mandatory insurance like a driver's license that ALSO banned any restrictions on large magazine size and removed any restrictions on fully-automatic weapons, or something similar.

roenxi 6y ago

Putting aside a lot of nuance and complication, both parties have an 'ideal state' in mind. They will make decisions that move the law closer to that ideal state. It'll be happening all the time, neither of them think the ideal state is compromising with the other. And if you want an example of the Democrats doing something similar, maybe the immigration situation? It is also nuanced and complicated, but the appearance isn't that the Democrats are consistently working to uphold the consensus position as found in the law. There is a lot of demonising.