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> Containing and minimizing the effects of a pandemic is just one aspect of what we might call a civilized attitude towards human life. Conversely, not doing so

> Containing and minimizing the effects of a pandemic is just one aspect of what we might call a civilized attitude towards human life. Conversely, not doing so is uncivilized and I might add immoral and irresponsible. This is acting under the assumption that something can be done, that the thing done is effective, or for that matter, isn't harmful. There were, of course, many things done. Were all of them effective? Were some of them harmful? Doing something harmful, like for example forcefully depriving many of a livelihood during a pandemic, can be considered immoral and irresponsible.

leto_ii 6y ago
There are many ways of mitigating the harmful effects of the lock down. State aid targeted directly towards individuals (and not corporations) is a good idea, I think. The same goes for a freeze on mortgage payments, rents, evictions etc. These are all measures that a modern state can take to prevent people from suffering economically.
- revnode 6y ago
  > There are many ways of mitigating the harmful effects of the lock down. State aid targeted directly towards individuals (and not corporations) is a good idea, I think. The same goes for a freeze on mortgage payments, rents, evictions etc. I think it's a bad idea to have people with little understanding of economics, but a high sense of moral superiority, fix the problems they create through their incompetence. Politicians are the last people you want doing this. Freeze evictions? Landlords go bust. Freeze mortgages? Mortgage servicers go bust. Now what? Mortgages when created are aggregated into securities with guaranteed contractual payments. No payments? What happens to the securities and the organizations that own them? Banks, pensions, retirement accounts, etc? What happens to the mortgage market and the young family who needs to buy their first home? Actions have consequences. It's nice to have ideas over the internet, but reality is a bit more complicated.
  - leto_ii 6y ago
    > I think it's a bad idea to have people with little understanding of economics, but a high sense of moral superiority, fix the problems they create through their incompetence. Not sure who you're referring to here. > Freeze evictions? Landlords go bust. Freeze mortgages? Mortgage servicers go bust. Corporations are legal fictions that do not have a right to life. Let them go bust and save the individuals working for those corporations. Once the crisis passes, they will re-create the legal fictions and continue their work. > Mortgages when created are aggregated into securities with guaranteed contractual payments. This should probably not have been allowed to happen in the first place. In general valid replies to your comments are easily available. Your condescension is, however, tiresome, so I will not pursue this thread any further.
    - nradov 6y ago
      It's easy to dodge the questions and act morally superior when you don't personally have to make the hard decisions or accept responsibility for the consequences. Others don't have that luxury.
  - TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
    These are all problems caused by the economic system. If an economic system can't cope with a relatively minor external stressor - and Covid is not nearly as dangerous or destructive as some stressors - then the problem is with the economic system. Actions do indeed have consequences - and trying to use the wrong tool for the job because you can't imagine a better tool is possible is not a wise action.
    - revnode 6y ago
      > These are all problems caused by the economic system. What problems? There are no major structural problems yet. There will be major structural problems if OP's ideas are implemented because they're not sound. That's not related to the economic system, that's related to OP's ideas.
      - 6y ago
- mikem170 6y ago
  The only bummer is that a lot of this amounts to expecting the young to pay for this the rest of their lives. Politicians keep kicking the can down the road and it is not fair to future generations. Nobody seems to be talking about that.
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    This was already the case long before COVID, different problem, requiring an entirely different solution. Look to fix political systems in order to address these issues.
  - chimprich 6y ago
    Depends. If you give someone a furlough handout, they can keep buying food, paying rent, paying for services (keeping other people's jobs viable, basically). If you let someone go bankrupt, lose their job, house, etc. they are suddenly not contributing to the economy and other people start losing their jobs. And that person then needs welfare payments anyway to avoid starving to death etc. In the former case the government might borrow to pay for that, but if you borrow money, you have to borrow it off someone. Someone has to buy those bonds; e.g. pension funds. "The young" will be not will be worse off overall; it has to balance out overall. Some of them will be creditors. The balance won't be evenly distributed, but future governments can decide by how much with tax strategies. Compare to climate change, a problem we are very definitely kicking down the road to future generations.

leto_ii 6y ago

There are many ways of mitigating the harmful effects of the lock down. State aid targeted directly towards individuals (and not corporations) is a good idea, I think. The same goes for a freeze on mortgage payments, rents, evictions etc. These are all measures that a modern state can take to prevent people from suffering economically.

revnode 6y ago
> There are many ways of mitigating the harmful effects of the lock down. State aid targeted directly towards individuals (and not corporations) is a good idea, I think. The same goes for a freeze on mortgage payments, rents, evictions etc. I think it's a bad idea to have people with little understanding of economics, but a high sense of moral superiority, fix the problems they create through their incompetence. Politicians are the last people you want doing this. Freeze evictions? Landlords go bust. Freeze mortgages? Mortgage servicers go bust. Now what? Mortgages when created are aggregated into securities with guaranteed contractual payments. No payments? What happens to the securities and the organizations that own them? Banks, pensions, retirement accounts, etc? What happens to the mortgage market and the young family who needs to buy their first home? Actions have consequences. It's nice to have ideas over the internet, but reality is a bit more complicated.
- leto_ii 6y ago
  > I think it's a bad idea to have people with little understanding of economics, but a high sense of moral superiority, fix the problems they create through their incompetence. Not sure who you're referring to here. > Freeze evictions? Landlords go bust. Freeze mortgages? Mortgage servicers go bust. Corporations are legal fictions that do not have a right to life. Let them go bust and save the individuals working for those corporations. Once the crisis passes, they will re-create the legal fictions and continue their work. > Mortgages when created are aggregated into securities with guaranteed contractual payments. This should probably not have been allowed to happen in the first place. In general valid replies to your comments are easily available. Your condescension is, however, tiresome, so I will not pursue this thread any further.
  - nradov 6y ago
    It's easy to dodge the questions and act morally superior when you don't personally have to make the hard decisions or accept responsibility for the consequences. Others don't have that luxury.
- TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
  These are all problems caused by the economic system. If an economic system can't cope with a relatively minor external stressor - and Covid is not nearly as dangerous or destructive as some stressors - then the problem is with the economic system. Actions do indeed have consequences - and trying to use the wrong tool for the job because you can't imagine a better tool is possible is not a wise action.
  - revnode 6y ago
    > These are all problems caused by the economic system. What problems? There are no major structural problems yet. There will be major structural problems if OP's ideas are implemented because they're not sound. That's not related to the economic system, that's related to OP's ideas.
    - 6y ago
mikem170 6y ago
The only bummer is that a lot of this amounts to expecting the young to pay for this the rest of their lives. Politicians keep kicking the can down the road and it is not fair to future generations. Nobody seems to be talking about that.
- jacquesm 6y ago
  This was already the case long before COVID, different problem, requiring an entirely different solution. Look to fix political systems in order to address these issues.
- chimprich 6y ago
  Depends. If you give someone a furlough handout, they can keep buying food, paying rent, paying for services (keeping other people's jobs viable, basically). If you let someone go bankrupt, lose their job, house, etc. they are suddenly not contributing to the economy and other people start losing their jobs. And that person then needs welfare payments anyway to avoid starving to death etc. In the former case the government might borrow to pay for that, but if you borrow money, you have to borrow it off someone. Someone has to buy those bonds; e.g. pension funds. "The young" will be not will be worse off overall; it has to balance out overall. Some of them will be creditors. The balance won't be evenly distributed, but future governments can decide by how much with tax strategies. Compare to climate change, a problem we are very definitely kicking down the road to future generations.