5 ms·

This pretty much sums up Christian ethics.

by asdfologist 6y ago

hprotagonist 6y ago
I didn't say it was a particularly original idea. :)
I-M-S 6y ago
Christian ethics is all about demanding a payment, ie. the promise that one's good deeds will be rewarded in afterlife.
- minkzilla 6y ago
  From the Catholic perspective this is not true. People do not Earn heaven, it is a gift. And doing the right thing is good for it’s own sake.
  - slothtrop 6y ago
    This seems like a murky area even for Catholics. My understanding was that it is still contingent on faith and all the rituals.
    - Thorentis 6y ago
      Yes, but the Catholic position is based on St James idea of "living faith". E.g. Faith without works is dead. It also is based on Jesus' instructions about "he who loves me, does my commands". The grace and love are free gifts, but what is love without good actions? The best analogy I can think of is if a husband says they love their wife, but they never help them, show affection, do anything to serve them, do they really love them? Now in marriage, love should ultimately be unconditional (to a point, all analogies fall down at some point). If a wife loves their husband freely, but the husband says they return the love but do nothing to show it, what can we infer about his love?
      - slothtrop 6y ago
        At a glance it doesn't seem you're contradicting me but that faith stipulates following Biblical instruction. That describes the religion in practice, anyone that dons faith would do that (or portend to) as faith encapsulates all those ideas. The notion that people should do good for its own sake doesn't really change the fact that it's the ticket for Catholicism. Conversely in, say, Calvinism nothing you do can guarantee Salvation.
- hprotagonist 6y ago
  there isn't such a thing as the singular christian ethics. And the theologians i've read who seem the most on point explicitly reject the transactionalist nature of payment-demanding as inhuman and a fundamental misunderstanding of the game. i'm on board with universal reconciliation, so "pie in the sky when you die" never did it for me anyway, but to be clear i'm also not describing "some happier future state" in my top post as anything other than improvement for our lives as we know them right now on this planet.
- wolfhumble 6y ago
  No, we are all sinners, and Jesus paid the price for each one of us on the cross: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." [Ephesians 2, 8-9 NKJV] "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us". [1 John 1, 8-10 NKJV]
  - Nition 6y ago
    Probably worth adding the famous John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (emphasis mine)
    - wolfhumble 6y ago
      Yes! That it is were it starts and continues in aeternum. :-)
- slothtrop 6y ago
  More accurately that worship / faith will be rewarded with salvation. For Christians afterlife is broadly considered a certainty, it's just a question of whether you'll get the good or bad one.
  - catawbasam 6y ago
    Eternal has neither before nor after, so afterlife needn't enter into it. The Kingdom of God is within you.
    - slothtrop 6y ago
      That's a rather eastern perspective. Mortal life ends and for the average Christian of any denomination, the burning issue is what comes after.
      - hprotagonist 6y ago
        that is certainly the parody, and it’s not wrong for some, but my experience in each of the 5 congregations i’ve been a part of does not reflect it. the kingdom of god is not heaven after you die. it’s much more to do with the homeless woman on the street outside your house right this instant. and i’m a boring mainline protestant!
        slothtrop 6y ago
        > the kingdom of god is not heaven after you die Quite a few religions will regard the present moment as such (Buddhism, Judaism), but not all propose an afterlife. Whether all the world is the Kingdom, by definition Heaven is too. The weight of messaging and interpretation shifts with the times to capitalize on the fact that people are more life-affirming when times are good, and if broadly there's toil and suffering, well, hope for peace in the next life. I think it's disingenuous to ignore the distinction. You can quibble about what-its-all-about, but in accordance with the dogma there's either afterlife or there isn't, and that knowledge is so prominent in popular culture that non-believers know it, people from other cultures know it.
- jmchuster 6y ago
  Hmm, that understanding is a little bit off. Here's a common analogy: You go before a judge for sentencing, and he says that you have inherited a debt of a trillion dollars. He then says he offers to wipe your slate clean. Your possible responses are: 1) I don't believe you, I don't owe any debt. (atheist) 2) I believe I owe this debt, but I reject your offer. (demons) 3) I believe I owe this debt, but I will pay it myself. (good works) 4) I believe I owe this debt, and I am eternally grateful that you have paid it for me. (christians) So your description would fall under category (3). You owe a debt of a trillion dollars and then say, hey, here's a couple hundred bucks I earned through my good deeds, we're good, right? That's a complete insult, to reject the gift, and then try to pay it back with a pittance.

This pretty much sums up Christian ethics.

hprotagonist 6y ago

I didn't say it was a particularly original idea. :)

I-M-S 6y ago

Christian ethics is all about demanding a payment, ie. the promise that one's good deeds will be rewarded in afterlife.

minkzilla 6y ago
From the Catholic perspective this is not true. People do not Earn heaven, it is a gift. And doing the right thing is good for it’s own sake.
- slothtrop 6y ago
  This seems like a murky area even for Catholics. My understanding was that it is still contingent on faith and all the rituals.
  - Thorentis 6y ago
    Yes, but the Catholic position is based on St James idea of "living faith". E.g. Faith without works is dead. It also is based on Jesus' instructions about "he who loves me, does my commands". The grace and love are free gifts, but what is love without good actions? The best analogy I can think of is if a husband says they love their wife, but they never help them, show affection, do anything to serve them, do they really love them? Now in marriage, love should ultimately be unconditional (to a point, all analogies fall down at some point). If a wife loves their husband freely, but the husband says they return the love but do nothing to show it, what can we infer about his love?
    - slothtrop 6y ago
      At a glance it doesn't seem you're contradicting me but that faith stipulates following Biblical instruction. That describes the religion in practice, anyone that dons faith would do that (or portend to) as faith encapsulates all those ideas. The notion that people should do good for its own sake doesn't really change the fact that it's the ticket for Catholicism. Conversely in, say, Calvinism nothing you do can guarantee Salvation.
hprotagonist 6y ago
there isn't such a thing as the singular christian ethics. And the theologians i've read who seem the most on point explicitly reject the transactionalist nature of payment-demanding as inhuman and a fundamental misunderstanding of the game. i'm on board with universal reconciliation, so "pie in the sky when you die" never did it for me anyway, but to be clear i'm also not describing "some happier future state" in my top post as anything other than improvement for our lives as we know them right now on this planet.
wolfhumble 6y ago
No, we are all sinners, and Jesus paid the price for each one of us on the cross: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." [Ephesians 2, 8-9 NKJV] "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us". [1 John 1, 8-10 NKJV]
- Nition 6y ago
  Probably worth adding the famous John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (emphasis mine)
  - wolfhumble 6y ago
    Yes! That it is were it starts and continues in aeternum. :-)
slothtrop 6y ago
More accurately that worship / faith will be rewarded with salvation. For Christians afterlife is broadly considered a certainty, it's just a question of whether you'll get the good or bad one.
- catawbasam 6y ago
  Eternal has neither before nor after, so afterlife needn't enter into it. The Kingdom of God is within you.
  - slothtrop 6y ago
    That's a rather eastern perspective. Mortal life ends and for the average Christian of any denomination, the burning issue is what comes after.
    - hprotagonist 6y ago
      that is certainly the parody, and it’s not wrong for some, but my experience in each of the 5 congregations i’ve been a part of does not reflect it. the kingdom of god is not heaven after you die. it’s much more to do with the homeless woman on the street outside your house right this instant. and i’m a boring mainline protestant!
      - slothtrop 6y ago
        > the kingdom of god is not heaven after you die Quite a few religions will regard the present moment as such (Buddhism, Judaism), but not all propose an afterlife. Whether all the world is the Kingdom, by definition Heaven is too. The weight of messaging and interpretation shifts with the times to capitalize on the fact that people are more life-affirming when times are good, and if broadly there's toil and suffering, well, hope for peace in the next life. I think it's disingenuous to ignore the distinction. You can quibble about what-its-all-about, but in accordance with the dogma there's either afterlife or there isn't, and that knowledge is so prominent in popular culture that non-believers know it, people from other cultures know it.
jmchuster 6y ago
Hmm, that understanding is a little bit off. Here's a common analogy: You go before a judge for sentencing, and he says that you have inherited a debt of a trillion dollars. He then says he offers to wipe your slate clean. Your possible responses are: 1) I don't believe you, I don't owe any debt. (atheist) 2) I believe I owe this debt, but I reject your offer. (demons) 3) I believe I owe this debt, but I will pay it myself. (good works) 4) I believe I owe this debt, and I am eternally grateful that you have paid it for me. (christians) So your description would fall under category (3). You owe a debt of a trillion dollars and then say, hey, here's a couple hundred bucks I earned through my good deeds, we're good, right? That's a complete insult, to reject the gift, and then try to pay it back with a pittance.