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Not necessarily. I have an app with 1,000 users, and about 99% of them choose to obfuscate. My app isn’t untrustworthy at all either. It’s an experimental app

by sudoit 6y ago

Not necessarily. I have an app with 1,000 users, and about 99% of them choose to obfuscate. My app isn’t untrustworthy at all either. It’s an experimental app which attempts to let users create an iOS app on iOS. My suspicion is that people choose to obfuscate because it’s what’s selected by default.

meristem 6y ago
Most likely. Never underestimate the power of defaults
moksly 6y ago
This is anecdotal but if I could chose not to share my email with things I sign up for, I wouldn’t have a gmail address used solely for signing up to things. I can’t think of a single thing that I’ve ever signed up for that I actually wanted to have my email. So sure, it’s default, but unless I’m unique some people will see the default and go “why isn’t every 3rd party login like that?”.
vladvasiliu 6y ago
I agree with the sibling in that defaults are powerful. However, I've never built anything directly used "by the public", nor am I very familiar with how Apple Sign in works. So I'm wondering, as the developer of a trustworthy app, what's the drawback in the user giving an obfuscated address? Is it not possible for you to contact the user using this address? Does the user have to manually allow getting mail to this address or somehow jump through some hoops to read it?
- tigershark 6y ago
  As explained in the article a lot of people use the iCloud mail for their apple account and they don’t check it because they use another provider main mail address. Furthermore if they contact them from their email for support they have no way to associate it with the mail registered in the system, so they can’t help them. If you ask me they seem both very valid points.
  - morberg 6y ago
    Do you have a number for “a lot of people”? I am very skeptical of this data point. This email address is used for a lot of communication with Apple, e.g. receipts from App Store.
    - sam_goody 6y ago
      Receipts from the app store go to my gmail account. I bought my iMac on the Apple store, and the receipt was also sent to my personal account.
  - vladvasiliu 6y ago
    > if they contact them from their email for support they have no way to associate it with the mail registered in the system, so they can’t help them. Thanks for the clarification, I didn't think of this scenario. This looks like a pretty big problem, as I can imagine a situation where the user doesn't have access at all to the app and may not have kept the initial email with any identifying info. Isn't there an easy way for the user to know which obfuscated address was used for which app?
  - aflag 6y ago
    Can't they just ask the user to open the app and send them some identifying number they can find in the ui?
    - thomaslord 6y ago
      Not if they have no ability to reply to the user in the first place. The user may also be contacting support because they lost access to their account and not be able to access the identifying number.
      - aflag 6y ago
        If the user emails them they can certainly reply. It's just a matter of showing their email somewhere. The ID can be shown before the user logs in. That would not be less secure then relying on the email to reset the password. If someone is able to access the user's unlocked phone, they probably can access their email account too.
msh 6y ago
Why is it a problem for you?
- sudoit 6y ago
  Isn’t a problem. I chose to use Apple sign in because I didn’t need email other than for having a way to later setup billable accounts. I plan to introduce a subscription option in a month or 2 and thought there’d be less friction if people already signed up.
  - sudoit 6y ago
    update: I've now removed the login entirely until it's absolutely needed. This change will go live in the next few weeks
lilyball 6y ago
My recollection is the first time I used Sign In With Apple it forced me to choose (no default), and after that it defaulted to my last choice. I expect 99% are obfuscating because that’s the sensible choice to make. Giving an app my real email should only be done if there’s an explicit need for this, such as being able to log in from non-Apple devices.
- L3viathan 6y ago
  You make a good point, and in general I agree, but it introduces additional headaches if I think about logging in from a non-Apple device later.
  - lilyball 6y ago
    You actually can support Sign In With Apple from arbitrary platforms, using the JS API. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/sign_in_with_apple/sign_in_with_apple_js https://developer.apple.com/documentation/sign_in_with_apple... This is obviously the most useful for websites, but Apple’s developer site links to this with the descriptor “for web and apps on other platforms” so clearly they’re ok with Android apps using it too.
c3534l 6y ago
It's also likely that 99% of users have no reason to share their email with you. Also, your app is extremely untrustworthy. It sounds like a random app you find by searching for key words. You're not Microsoft or Google, you have no reputation or credibility. They have no relationship with you, they don't know you, they likely have never interacted with your company before this. If I need an email to verify I'm not a bot, that's fine. But if a trusted 3rd party can verify I'm not a bot, then the only reason you would want my email is to do something unethical with it: namely, use my data in a way that I never intended gave you permission to use it. Being default probably helps, because most people don't know they're doing with software and just accept the defaults assuming they're best practices. If the default were to share the email, you might see more people sharing email, but I would argue it's because people don't know they can and should obfuscate it.
- undreren 6y ago
  > If I need an email to verify I'm not a bot, that's fine. But if a trusted 3rd party can verify I'm not a bot, then the only reason you would want my email is to do something unethical with it: namely, use my data in a way that I never intended gave you permission to use it. This was addressed in the article. If the service provider does not have your email address, they are severely hampered with regards to customer support.
  - iuguy 6y ago
    > If the service provider does not have your email address, they are severely hampered with regards to customer support. No, they're not. They're just relying on email as a user verification methods as it's the easiest approach. Other methods are possible.
    - indymike 6y ago
      Verification is only one part of the problem. The other is communication. If I can't contact my customers, how do I support them (e.g. report a security problem)? If my customers can't communicate which account is theirs, how do we help solve problems? Email addresses and/or phone numbers make this a lot easier.
mlang23 6y ago
"My app isn’t untrustworthy at all either. It’s an experimental ..." There is a big contradiction in there... Everything experimental is by definition untrustworthy.
chrischen 6y ago
Yes i obfuscate by default but as a user it’s also not immediately apparent to me that this would cause unintended side-effects. It’s really up to both the app developer and Apple to enable good user experience by designing around human behavior, rather than trusting the user can always make those decisions.
coldtea 6y ago
>My app isn’t untrustworthy at all either. That's up to the user to decide. For me trustworthy = something like Basecamp, Amazon, etc, not some random small app.
- zeepzeep 6y ago
  > That's up to the user to decide. > trustworthy = [...] Amazon Good point, because your example includes one of the few companies I don't trust at all.
  - basch 6y ago
    different types of trust. Trust not to misuse. Trust not to leak in a breach. Realistically, my email address is something I trust Amazon with both of, because email isnt how they spam me, they are smart enough they can identify me without my email address, and I expect their security to be more hardened and battle tested.
tguedes 6y ago
Why do you need my email address? I wouldn't give it to you just so you can have bad database security and then have my email dumped somewhere.
mrbrianhinton 6y ago
I choose to obfuscate because I don't want every app I download to have my email address.

by sudoit 6y ago

meristem 6y ago

Most likely. Never underestimate the power of defaults

moksly 6y ago

This is anecdotal but if I could chose not to share my email with things I sign up for, I wouldn’t have a gmail address used solely for signing up to things. I can’t think of a single thing that I’ve ever signed up for that I actually wanted to have my email. So sure, it’s default, but unless I’m unique some people will see the default and go “why isn’t every 3rd party login like that?”.

vladvasiliu 6y ago

I agree with the sibling in that defaults are powerful. However, I've never built anything directly used "by the public", nor am I very familiar with how Apple Sign in works. So I'm wondering, as the developer of a trustworthy app, what's the drawback in the user giving an obfuscated address? Is it not possible for you to contact the user using this address? Does the user have to manually allow getting mail to this address or somehow jump through some hoops to read it?

tigershark 6y ago
As explained in the article a lot of people use the iCloud mail for their apple account and they don’t check it because they use another provider main mail address. Furthermore if they contact them from their email for support they have no way to associate it with the mail registered in the system, so they can’t help them. If you ask me they seem both very valid points.
- morberg 6y ago
  Do you have a number for “a lot of people”? I am very skeptical of this data point. This email address is used for a lot of communication with Apple, e.g. receipts from App Store.
  - sam_goody 6y ago
    Receipts from the app store go to my gmail account. I bought my iMac on the Apple store, and the receipt was also sent to my personal account.
- vladvasiliu 6y ago
  > if they contact them from their email for support they have no way to associate it with the mail registered in the system, so they can’t help them. Thanks for the clarification, I didn't think of this scenario. This looks like a pretty big problem, as I can imagine a situation where the user doesn't have access at all to the app and may not have kept the initial email with any identifying info. Isn't there an easy way for the user to know which obfuscated address was used for which app?
- aflag 6y ago
  Can't they just ask the user to open the app and send them some identifying number they can find in the ui?
  - thomaslord 6y ago
    Not if they have no ability to reply to the user in the first place. The user may also be contacting support because they lost access to their account and not be able to access the identifying number.
    - aflag 6y ago
      If the user emails them they can certainly reply. It's just a matter of showing their email somewhere. The ID can be shown before the user logs in. That would not be less secure then relying on the email to reset the password. If someone is able to access the user's unlocked phone, they probably can access their email account too.

msh 6y ago

Why is it a problem for you?

sudoit 6y ago
Isn’t a problem. I chose to use Apple sign in because I didn’t need email other than for having a way to later setup billable accounts. I plan to introduce a subscription option in a month or 2 and thought there’d be less friction if people already signed up.
- sudoit 6y ago
  update: I've now removed the login entirely until it's absolutely needed. This change will go live in the next few weeks

lilyball 6y ago

My recollection is the first time I used Sign In With Apple it forced me to choose (no default), and after that it defaulted to my last choice. I expect 99% are obfuscating because that’s the sensible choice to make. Giving an app my real email should only be done if there’s an explicit need for this, such as being able to log in from non-Apple devices.

L3viathan 6y ago
You make a good point, and in general I agree, but it introduces additional headaches if I think about logging in from a non-Apple device later.
- lilyball 6y ago
  You actually can support Sign In With Apple from arbitrary platforms, using the JS API. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/sign_in_with_apple/sign_in_with_apple_js https://developer.apple.com/documentation/sign_in_with_apple... This is obviously the most useful for websites, but Apple’s developer site links to this with the descriptor “for web and apps on other platforms” so clearly they’re ok with Android apps using it too.

c3534l 6y ago

It's also likely that 99% of users have no reason to share their email with you. Also, your app is extremely untrustworthy. It sounds like a random app you find by searching for key words. You're not Microsoft or Google, you have no reputation or credibility. They have no relationship with you, they don't know you, they likely have never interacted with your company before this. If I need an email to verify I'm not a bot, that's fine. But if a trusted 3rd party can verify I'm not a bot, then the only reason you would want my email is to do something unethical with it: namely, use my data in a way that I never intended gave you permission to use it. Being default probably helps, because most people don't know they're doing with software and just accept the defaults assuming they're best practices. If the default were to share the email, you might see more people sharing email, but I would argue it's because people don't know they can and should obfuscate it.

undreren 6y ago
> If I need an email to verify I'm not a bot, that's fine. But if a trusted 3rd party can verify I'm not a bot, then the only reason you would want my email is to do something unethical with it: namely, use my data in a way that I never intended gave you permission to use it. This was addressed in the article. If the service provider does not have your email address, they are severely hampered with regards to customer support.
- iuguy 6y ago
  > If the service provider does not have your email address, they are severely hampered with regards to customer support. No, they're not. They're just relying on email as a user verification methods as it's the easiest approach. Other methods are possible.
  - indymike 6y ago
    Verification is only one part of the problem. The other is communication. If I can't contact my customers, how do I support them (e.g. report a security problem)? If my customers can't communicate which account is theirs, how do we help solve problems? Email addresses and/or phone numbers make this a lot easier.

mlang23 6y ago

"My app isn’t untrustworthy at all either. It’s an experimental ..." There is a big contradiction in there... Everything experimental is by definition untrustworthy.

chrischen 6y ago

Yes i obfuscate by default but as a user it’s also not immediately apparent to me that this would cause unintended side-effects. It’s really up to both the app developer and Apple to enable good user experience by designing around human behavior, rather than trusting the user can always make those decisions.

coldtea 6y ago

>My app isn’t untrustworthy at all either. That's up to the user to decide. For me trustworthy = something like Basecamp, Amazon, etc, not some random small app.

zeepzeep 6y ago
> That's up to the user to decide. > trustworthy = [...] Amazon Good point, because your example includes one of the few companies I don't trust at all.
- basch 6y ago
  different types of trust. Trust not to misuse. Trust not to leak in a breach. Realistically, my email address is something I trust Amazon with both of, because email isnt how they spam me, they are smart enough they can identify me without my email address, and I expect their security to be more hardened and battle tested.

tguedes 6y ago

Why do you need my email address? I wouldn't give it to you just so you can have bad database security and then have my email dumped somewhere.

mrbrianhinton 6y ago

I choose to obfuscate because I don't want every app I download to have my email address.