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Perhaps a naive question, but what will this mean for Bootcamp users?
by MistahKoala 6y ago
Perhaps a naive question, but what will this mean for Bootcamp users?
- spacedcowboy 6y agoFind out on Monday :) Either they’ve integrated Wine, or you’re screwed.
- tgv 6y agoWine is not an emulator, as you may know. It runs the executable directly on the processor, embedded in a Windows compatible runtime. You probably mean something like Rosetta...
- rcoder 6y agoThere's plenty of prior art beyond Rosetta to look at. MS has already done this for Windows on ARM, and simultaneously across ABIs via WSL. Linux offers QEMU-based "on the fly" emulation of different instruction sets based on execution-time examination of the ELF binaries. x86 BSDs have long offered Linux emulation. Even ChromeOS offers lightweight containers for Android and Linux apps. Apple is actually pretty far behind the curve here, at least in terms of end-user-accessible features. Presumably that means they wouldn't have to innovate too much to get x86/ARM translation working, even for binaries that couldn't be readily recompiled to support the new chips directly.
- yyyk 6y agoWell, the GP was talking about getting wine to run. Your examples cover either instruction set emulation or ABI emulation, but not both. In order to get wine to do something useful om ARM mac, it would need to do both while somehow being optimized to not suffer too much performance loss, and without suffering too much compatibility loss. It turns out such a project actually exists![0] But it seems to be in an early stage, and relies on infrastructure not exactly favoured in MacOS (QEMU, deprecated OpenGL). Apple could work to port it and polish it so it works with most apps, but why on earth would they invest so much in Windows compatibility? IMHO, Apple has two reasonable choices here: Ignore Windows compatibility from now on, or do just enough so that Windows on ARM boots, and let Microsoft deal with the supporting x86 Windows headache and blame. [0] https://github.com/AndreRH/hangover https://github.com/AndreRH/hangover
- spacedcowboy 6y agoYou’re right, of course, and I did. It’s morning, I need coffee, have an upvote :)
- canada_dry 6y ago> mean for Bootcamp users? And 'hackintosh' enthusiasts?
- bitL 6y agoHackintosh would be obviously a thing of the past if they went ARM-exclusive.
- nutjob2 6y agoIt would just be stuck on the last x86 release of the OS. But even more likely is someone would port it to off the shelf ARM processors.
- canada_dry 6y ago> port it to off the shelf ARM processors My guess is that Apple will put some effort into ensuring this will be non-trivial (read: impossible).
- 1over137 6y agoExactly. macOS will surely start to require the T2 (or newer) chip.
- nutjob2 6y agoApple is unlikely to waste engineering resources and product resources on something they don't care about. Hackintoshes are largely an enthusiast phenomenon that doesn't overlap much with their core market of people willing to spend a premium on hardware that "just works" and looks nice. For the last 10 years Apple hasn't lifted a finger to stop them , why would they start now? The danger is not so much T2 chips or the like, because that can easily be defeated in software, but locking down peripheral support would be. For instance if they only support their own custom graphics hardware that would be a problem. This is what Apple tends to do so it's the most likely scenario.
- 6y ago
- dschuetz 6y agoThey will have to switch to ChromeOS or long dead Windows RT.
- pedrocx486 6y agoUh, no? Windows 10 runs on ARM, and can even emulate (slowly) some X86 apps.
- jchook 6y agoApparently Windows supports ARM, so in theory Apple will continue to support Bootcamp. > (notably, one thing Apple does not need to give up is Windows support: Windows has run on ARM for the last decade, and I expect Boot Camp to continue, and for virtualization offerings to be available as well; whether this will be as useful as Intel-based virtualization remains to be seen). https://stratechery.com/2020/apple-arm-and-intel/ https://stratechery.com/2020/apple-arm-and-intel/
- paulryanrogers 6y agoWindows may support ARM. Yet the reason most people want Windows is compatibility. And if Windows ARM doesn't run most of their software then it's a step backward for them.
- dtech 6y agoIt might give a small boost to Windows-on-ARM that Microsoft has been trying for over a decade. Porting a typical windows app might be easier than porting to Mac/Linux because you still have DirectX and all the Windows libraries. There's also x86 emulation on ARM. It's slow, but it might be enough to run that 20 year old business app.
- slantyyz 6y agoWasn't Intel saber-rattling about patent lawsuits when Microsoft announced that Windows for ARM would run some x86 apps via emulation? [1] While I don't know what became of that, I can see Microsoft working out a deal with Intel because Windows is still huge on x86 and wasn't going anywhere. On the other hand, if Apple is planning to completely drop Intel in favor of ARM and wants to implement x86 emulation, I can't see Intel letting OSX ARM emulate x86 without some form of resistance. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/tiriasresearch/2017/06/16/intel-threatens-microsoft-and-qualcomm-over-x86-emulation/#2ed6c54354f4 https://www.forbes.com/sites/tiriasresearch/2017/06/16/intel... (sorry about the link being Forbes, it was the first search result for the keywords I used)
- 6y ago
- rietta 6y agoWhat has been done for a few decades, software emulation of another CPU. It's slow but it works. QEMU can do it quite well.
- mister_hn 6y agoInstall Ubuntu for ARM or just don't buy newer Apple hardware if you want to install Windows on it
- dehrmann 6y agoI'm not convinced Apple will abandon x86 entirely. A lot of high-end Macbooks Pro are bought for software developers looking for Docker support, and that gets messier when you're developing for multiple architectures. (Then again, maybe it's a good thing if you like AWS Graviton.) The product that would benefit the most from ARM is the Macbook Air, so it's possible they just do that.