5 ms·

Can't we do both?

by arielserafini 6y ago

Can't we do both?

myst 6y ago
Why would you need to (re)invent words if there is no problem anymore?
- arielserafini 6y ago
  So structural racism has ended?
  - asjw 6y ago
    Well, masters and slaves have existed longer before than structural racism They were already there in Babylon over 4 thousands years ago.
    - asjw 6y ago
      It's kinda depressing to see the downvote, again, because people don't know history Slavery does not imply racism, it hasn't been the case for a very long time throughout history, slaves were a social class, a synonym for what we call "working class" or they were people from conquered lands, that were enslaved as a display of suoremacy, not because of their ethnicity. They usually were of the same ethnicity. Rome had emperors who were born in Africa (Settimio Severo for example) Have the slaves suffered abuses? Yes, of course, just like working class, and farmers and other poor classes before them, have been exploited. French Revolution is all about that. They were all French against other French. Only in modern history slavery has been justified by racism (the theory that some "races" were superior to others) but it's not modern slavery that created racism, it's the opposite.
      - sukilot 6y ago
        My copy of the Holy Bible has several sections about conquering and enslaving foreign nations (ethnic groups). Obviously, "scientific racism" didn't exist before "science".
      - taylodl 6y ago
        Slavery in the United States was an especially brutal form of slavery referred to as chattel slavery. In this form of slavery the slaves are not regarded as even being human, they are treated with the same regard as one would treat an ox. American slaves were not the working class as you describe.
        chinesempire 6y ago
        Do you think Leopold the II slaves in Congo were considered human beings? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocities_in_the_Congo_Free_State https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocities_in_the_Congo_Free... Do you think slaves in Japan were treated equally? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Japan#:~:text=Japan%20had%20an%20official%20slave,sex%20slaves%20from%201932%20%E2%80%93%201945 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Japan#:~:text=Jap.... There is nothing special in US slavery, except it happened in US and US has been culturally relevant for the west since the end of WW2 One thing is the historical reasoning about it, another is thinking that it happened only to one place in the world and only those people can talk about it. Don't get me wrong, slavery is a terrible and unjustifiable crime, but it didn't start in US and it didn't end in 1861
        taylodl 6y ago
        The United States was not the only country to ever employ chattel slavery - it's not unique in that regard. It is unique in that it's the only country to end slavery due to civil war - a fact I think is very important in this discussion. There are to this day a number of "rebels" as they call themselves who believe themselves to be intellectually and morally superior to black people, they want to keep black and whites separated, and they want to remind blacks of their inferiority by prominently displaying statues of Confederate Generals in the public square and promulgating the use of terms reminding blacks of their inferior social standing. Terms such as blackmail, blacklist, and master/slave. There's way more behind this than just slavery and snowflakes getting their feelings hurt.
        baggy_trough 6y ago
        Associating your second to last sentence with Confederate-supporting racists is a vicious distortion.
lwhalen 6y ago
No. There is a finite amount of time and energy (physical, emotional, and other) that an individual, and by proxy a group, can dedicate to a given cause. Wasting those resources on token gestures like this means there is _less_ energy to go towards actions that will cause meaningful change. "Changing words because feels" is social self-gratification, and does nothing to address the actual societal ills. If you want to see meaningful change, disregard this terminology frippery and call/write/email/whatever your local rep to support the tri-partisan bill revoking qualified immunity. I promise, you will see vastly more improvement in society if this bill goes through, than if we spin our wheels wondering if "foobar" is going to be the next doublePlusUngood(tm) term d'art of the week. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/how-the-supreme-court-could-change-policing-in-an-instant/ar-BB154WWO https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/how-the-supreme-court...
rurban 6y ago
Sure, but only changing the words has a severe credibility problem. Does make them look really bad.

Can't we do both?

myst 6y ago

Why would you need to (re)invent words if there is no problem anymore?

arielserafini 6y ago
So structural racism has ended?
- asjw 6y ago
  Well, masters and slaves have existed longer before than structural racism They were already there in Babylon over 4 thousands years ago.
  - asjw 6y ago
    It's kinda depressing to see the downvote, again, because people don't know history Slavery does not imply racism, it hasn't been the case for a very long time throughout history, slaves were a social class, a synonym for what we call "working class" or they were people from conquered lands, that were enslaved as a display of suoremacy, not because of their ethnicity. They usually were of the same ethnicity. Rome had emperors who were born in Africa (Settimio Severo for example) Have the slaves suffered abuses? Yes, of course, just like working class, and farmers and other poor classes before them, have been exploited. French Revolution is all about that. They were all French against other French. Only in modern history slavery has been justified by racism (the theory that some "races" were superior to others) but it's not modern slavery that created racism, it's the opposite.
    - sukilot 6y ago
      My copy of the Holy Bible has several sections about conquering and enslaving foreign nations (ethnic groups). Obviously, "scientific racism" didn't exist before "science".
    - taylodl 6y ago
      Slavery in the United States was an especially brutal form of slavery referred to as chattel slavery. In this form of slavery the slaves are not regarded as even being human, they are treated with the same regard as one would treat an ox. American slaves were not the working class as you describe.
      - chinesempire 6y ago
        Do you think Leopold the II slaves in Congo were considered human beings? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocities_in_the_Congo_Free_State https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocities_in_the_Congo_Free... Do you think slaves in Japan were treated equally? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Japan#:~:text=Japan%20had%20an%20official%20slave,sex%20slaves%20from%201932%20%E2%80%93%201945 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Japan#:~:text=Jap.... There is nothing special in US slavery, except it happened in US and US has been culturally relevant for the west since the end of WW2 One thing is the historical reasoning about it, another is thinking that it happened only to one place in the world and only those people can talk about it. Don't get me wrong, slavery is a terrible and unjustifiable crime, but it didn't start in US and it didn't end in 1861
        taylodl 6y ago
        The United States was not the only country to ever employ chattel slavery - it's not unique in that regard. It is unique in that it's the only country to end slavery due to civil war - a fact I think is very important in this discussion. There are to this day a number of "rebels" as they call themselves who believe themselves to be intellectually and morally superior to black people, they want to keep black and whites separated, and they want to remind blacks of their inferiority by prominently displaying statues of Confederate Generals in the public square and promulgating the use of terms reminding blacks of their inferior social standing. Terms such as blackmail, blacklist, and master/slave. There's way more behind this than just slavery and snowflakes getting their feelings hurt.
        baggy_trough 6y ago
        Associating your second to last sentence with Confederate-supporting racists is a vicious distortion.

lwhalen 6y ago

No. There is a finite amount of time and energy (physical, emotional, and other) that an individual, and by proxy a group, can dedicate to a given cause. Wasting those resources on token gestures like this means there is _less_ energy to go towards actions that will cause meaningful change. "Changing words because feels" is social self-gratification, and does nothing to address the actual societal ills. If you want to see meaningful change, disregard this terminology frippery and call/write/email/whatever your local rep to support the tri-partisan bill revoking qualified immunity. I promise, you will see vastly more improvement in society if this bill goes through, than if we spin our wheels wondering if "foobar" is going to be the next doublePlusUngood(tm) term d'art of the week. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/how-the-supreme-court-could-change-policing-in-an-instant/ar-BB154WWO https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/how-the-supreme-court...

rurban 6y ago

Sure, but only changing the words has a severe credibility problem. Does make them look really bad.