7 ms·

See general state of development/corruption for all ex-soviet countries versus the rest of the developed world.

by Wh1zz 6y ago

Wh1zz 6y ago
> See general state of development/corruption for all ex-soviet countries versus the rest of the developed world. Also, rights and stuff
coliveira 6y ago
From what I see, corruption in capitalist countries is rampant.
h91wka 6y ago
You confuse cause and effect of the soviet block collapse.
asjw 6y ago
Communism ≠ USSR Corruption is not a specific trait of ex Soviet countries, I would argue that it is more rampant in capitalistic countries, where money can buy favourable regulations (see tobacco or oil industry as an example)
- reitanqild 6y ago
  No, and it is not like maoist China or Kmehr Rouge Cambodia. But there is still a pattern here: despite all good intentions communism always end in horror as far as I know.
  - the-dude 6y ago
    How has the USSR ended up in horror? What about Cuba? I will give you Vietnam though.
    - asjw 6y ago
      What about Chile, Contras, the KKK ... ? What about the Videla's coup d'état supported by US that lead to hundreds of thousands of desaparecidos? One cannot simply point the finger and judge, without taking responsibility for their own wrongdoings
      - reitanqild 6y ago
        It is fully possible to say no to communism without supporting other bad stuff. I live in a kind of liberal, almost secular democracy. It isn't too bad.
        chinesempire 6y ago
        So you are taking responsibility for your country's wrongdoings? I am from Rome, a place with quite the history, it's not that bad either. Hironically the best Major that my city remembers (regardless of the political ideology) is Luigi Petroselli, elected in 1979, in office until the day of his death and a member of the Italian communist party since 1950, when he was 18...
    - reitanqild 6y ago
      > How has the USSR ended up in horror? By their own mistakes again and again? Same way as Maos China until they changed? > I will give you Vietnam though. How about this instead, I give you Cuba, that seems like a good example I think, at least I am not aware of any major henocides there and they have been attempted strangled for a number of years so not only their fault.
    - mamon 6y ago
      > How has the USSR ended up in horror? By killing roughly 20 millions of its own citizens? By forcibly deporting the whole nations from their homeland to a different part of the USSR? By forcing the surviving rest into poverty? By enslaving other countries for half of the century? I'm always surprised how unaware people in the West are of all of that (unlike Nazi crimes which are well known). You might think that Hitler was the most evil person of all the time, but Stalin really tried his best to outdo him (and succeeded, some would say). EDIT: Actually no, I'm not surprised that Western countries forgot about Stalin's atrocities. It was a deliberate choice - in order to win World War II Churchil and Roosvelt needed Stalin as an ally, but they couln't admit to their societies, to their voters, that they made a pact with the devil, so they made sure that Soviet crimes are forgotten.
  - asjw 6y ago
    Honestly, it's not going great for "the greatest democracy of the world" What I want to point out is that absolute systems (100% this or 100% that) don't work because masses of people are not 100% something There's nothing inherently wrong in communism, it's a great idea, it's just not for everybody all the time, just like American hyper liberism is good for some and bad for many (redistribution skewed towards the richest, social injustice, expensive health care and all of that...)
- asjw 6y ago
  To be clear I'm Italian, I don't think life in Italy is worse than in many other western countries, I would say it's generally better, especially for the medium-low income segment of the population PCI (the Italian communist party) obtadined regularly a third of the votes until it was disbanded in 1992 I don't think it ended up in horror or that it made Italy a place in ruins Corruption was very popular here in those years, but the government have been anti communists for 50 years straight from the end of WW2 until 1998, when the first former communist, Massimo D'Alema, became prime minister. He has also been a popular meme https://pietrodn.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/dalema-meme.jpg https://pietrodn.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/dalema-meme.jpg
dastx 6y ago
You wouldn't call a president that by all means takes from the poor, and gives it to the rich, to himself, and to children as corrupt? How about many, many senators who are doing the exact same thing? How about a prime minister that does the same? There is just as much corruption in the developed world as there is in ex-Soviet countries.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- dnautics 6y ago
  I feel like taking from the poor and giving to cronies is a thing that also happened under communism (and a good chunk of contemporary 'socialist' states, and to a less horrifying extent, gas and water socialisms like Western Europe). This is a generally predictable outcome of state-led socialism, as predicted long before actual implementation of state socialism, by early socialists like Benjamin Tucker and others like Bastiat in the mid 19th century.
  - dastx 6y ago
    I guess my point was that OP was implying capitalism has no or considerably less corruption, when in reality, this is not true. I'm not sure an ideology necessarily creates corruption. I'm not advocating for communism or capitalism or anything else, but when the UK PM is okay to start a multibillion dollar novelty project (London's Garden Bridge) and give that contract to his buddies, or the US president can literally charge the US taxpayer over $100 million to golf at his own golf course in less than four years, you cannot claim to be the better person. Capitalism sucks. Communism sucks. Instead of bashing one and praising the other despite both of them being immensely flawed, isn't the solution. Also why my original comment is flagged is beyond me.
coldtea 6y ago
Err, the ex-soviet countries are cut-throat capitalist, mostly the same way early western countries were (the "robber baron" era). Not the best counter-example!
- h91wka 6y ago
  Are they? Russia, for example, is neo-feudalist, not capitalist.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    Many western countries had similar strongmen. Some even had a bona fide royalty class, lording over common people, and then their sons, and grandsons lording in turn... That aside, modern Russia has tons of capitalists... Crony capitalism is still capitalism, and there are tons of proper companies there besides. Not everything is owned by some government-friendly mafioso. But when a regime collapses, like USSR did and there's a power vacuum that's what usually evolves for a while...
    - h91wka 6y ago
      > That aside, modern Russia has tons of capitalists They are the least protected class, who live under constant threat of business extortion by corrupt government clerks. That's pretty much the opposite of "cut-throat capitalism".
      - coldtea 6y ago
        >They are the least protected class, who live under constant threat of business extortion by corrupt government clerks. Not exactly, they are the ones who are friendly with the corrupt government clerks. It's not like government trumps capitalism, it's more like capitalists own friends in high places... So same as in most countries...
vetinari 6y ago
> See general state of development/corruption for all ex-soviet countries versus the rest of the developed world. The delta in development between ex-USSR countries vs. the West has only increased since 1991 (the fall of USSR). So whatever they do today means they are doing worse job than they were doing under communism.

See general state of development/corruption for all ex-soviet countries versus the rest of the developed world.

by Wh1zz 6y ago

See general state of development/corruption for all ex-soviet countries versus the rest of the developed world.

> See general state of development/corruption for all ex-soviet countries versus the rest of the developed world. Also, rights and stuff

coliveira 6y ago

From what I see, corruption in capitalist countries is rampant.

h91wka 6y ago

You confuse cause and effect of the soviet block collapse.

asjw 6y ago

Communism ≠ USSR Corruption is not a specific trait of ex Soviet countries, I would argue that it is more rampant in capitalistic countries, where money can buy favourable regulations (see tobacco or oil industry as an example)

reitanqild 6y ago
No, and it is not like maoist China or Kmehr Rouge Cambodia. But there is still a pattern here: despite all good intentions communism always end in horror as far as I know.
- the-dude 6y ago
  How has the USSR ended up in horror? What about Cuba? I will give you Vietnam though.
  - asjw 6y ago
    What about Chile, Contras, the KKK ... ? What about the Videla's coup d'état supported by US that lead to hundreds of thousands of desaparecidos? One cannot simply point the finger and judge, without taking responsibility for their own wrongdoings
    - reitanqild 6y ago
      It is fully possible to say no to communism without supporting other bad stuff. I live in a kind of liberal, almost secular democracy. It isn't too bad.
      - chinesempire 6y ago
        So you are taking responsibility for your country's wrongdoings? I am from Rome, a place with quite the history, it's not that bad either. Hironically the best Major that my city remembers (regardless of the political ideology) is Luigi Petroselli, elected in 1979, in office until the day of his death and a member of the Italian communist party since 1950, when he was 18...
  - reitanqild 6y ago
    > How has the USSR ended up in horror? By their own mistakes again and again? Same way as Maos China until they changed? > I will give you Vietnam though. How about this instead, I give you Cuba, that seems like a good example I think, at least I am not aware of any major henocides there and they have been attempted strangled for a number of years so not only their fault.
  - mamon 6y ago
    > How has the USSR ended up in horror? By killing roughly 20 millions of its own citizens? By forcibly deporting the whole nations from their homeland to a different part of the USSR? By forcing the surviving rest into poverty? By enslaving other countries for half of the century? I'm always surprised how unaware people in the West are of all of that (unlike Nazi crimes which are well known). You might think that Hitler was the most evil person of all the time, but Stalin really tried his best to outdo him (and succeeded, some would say). EDIT: Actually no, I'm not surprised that Western countries forgot about Stalin's atrocities. It was a deliberate choice - in order to win World War II Churchil and Roosvelt needed Stalin as an ally, but they couln't admit to their societies, to their voters, that they made a pact with the devil, so they made sure that Soviet crimes are forgotten.
- asjw 6y ago
  Honestly, it's not going great for "the greatest democracy of the world" What I want to point out is that absolute systems (100% this or 100% that) don't work because masses of people are not 100% something There's nothing inherently wrong in communism, it's a great idea, it's just not for everybody all the time, just like American hyper liberism is good for some and bad for many (redistribution skewed towards the richest, social injustice, expensive health care and all of that...)
asjw 6y ago
To be clear I'm Italian, I don't think life in Italy is worse than in many other western countries, I would say it's generally better, especially for the medium-low income segment of the population PCI (the Italian communist party) obtadined regularly a third of the votes until it was disbanded in 1992 I don't think it ended up in horror or that it made Italy a place in ruins Corruption was very popular here in those years, but the government have been anti communists for 50 years straight from the end of WW2 until 1998, when the first former communist, Massimo D'Alema, became prime minister. He has also been a popular meme https://pietrodn.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/dalema-meme.jpg https://pietrodn.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/dalema-meme.jpg

dastx 6y ago

You wouldn't call a president that by all means takes from the poor, and gives it to the rich, to himself, and to children as corrupt? How about many, many senators who are doing the exact same thing? How about a prime minister that does the same? There is just as much corruption in the developed world as there is in ex-Soviet countries.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dnautics 6y ago
I feel like taking from the poor and giving to cronies is a thing that also happened under communism (and a good chunk of contemporary 'socialist' states, and to a less horrifying extent, gas and water socialisms like Western Europe). This is a generally predictable outcome of state-led socialism, as predicted long before actual implementation of state socialism, by early socialists like Benjamin Tucker and others like Bastiat in the mid 19th century.
- dastx 6y ago
  I guess my point was that OP was implying capitalism has no or considerably less corruption, when in reality, this is not true. I'm not sure an ideology necessarily creates corruption. I'm not advocating for communism or capitalism or anything else, but when the UK PM is okay to start a multibillion dollar novelty project (London's Garden Bridge) and give that contract to his buddies, or the US president can literally charge the US taxpayer over $100 million to golf at his own golf course in less than four years, you cannot claim to be the better person. Capitalism sucks. Communism sucks. Instead of bashing one and praising the other despite both of them being immensely flawed, isn't the solution. Also why my original comment is flagged is beyond me.

coldtea 6y ago

Err, the ex-soviet countries are cut-throat capitalist, mostly the same way early western countries were (the "robber baron" era). Not the best counter-example!

h91wka 6y ago
Are they? Russia, for example, is neo-feudalist, not capitalist.
- coldtea 6y ago
  Many western countries had similar strongmen. Some even had a bona fide royalty class, lording over common people, and then their sons, and grandsons lording in turn... That aside, modern Russia has tons of capitalists... Crony capitalism is still capitalism, and there are tons of proper companies there besides. Not everything is owned by some government-friendly mafioso. But when a regime collapses, like USSR did and there's a power vacuum that's what usually evolves for a while...
  - h91wka 6y ago
    > That aside, modern Russia has tons of capitalists They are the least protected class, who live under constant threat of business extortion by corrupt government clerks. That's pretty much the opposite of "cut-throat capitalism".
    - coldtea 6y ago
      >They are the least protected class, who live under constant threat of business extortion by corrupt government clerks. Not exactly, they are the ones who are friendly with the corrupt government clerks. It's not like government trumps capitalism, it's more like capitalists own friends in high places... So same as in most countries...

vetinari 6y ago

> See general state of development/corruption for all ex-soviet countries versus the rest of the developed world. The delta in development between ex-USSR countries vs. the West has only increased since 1991 (the fall of USSR). So whatever they do today means they are doing worse job than they were doing under communism.