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This seems similar to the joke where after Brexit, the Germans are angry that english is still the official EU language and they change the english language unt

This seems similar to the joke where after Brexit, the Germans are angry that english is still the official EU language and they change the english language until it sounds a lot like german. In a few years, C# 20.0 will have only one release note: Changed the name from C# to F#

corysama 6y ago
C# is Microsoft Research's 20-year-long con to turn Java programmers into OCaml programmers so slowly that they don't notice.
- rad_gruchalski 6y ago
  With Kotlin and Scala in existence, that ain’t going to happen. C# is as verbose as it was years ago. After years of Scala collections, eithers, options, why would anybody consider C#. Just look at plumbing with init, data records and with. That is what a case class with val properties in Scala gives. But congratulations to the team on shipping v9.
  - couchcombinator 6y ago
    Because Scala takes mind-boggingly long to compile. Because Scala has so many features that anything has at least 3 different ways to implement it. Because it’s very easy to write unreadable code in scala, not so much in C#. Because Scala uses JVM, while C# has access to .NET (yes this is an advantage for many developers).
    - whycombagator 6y ago
      > Because Scala has so many features that anything has at least 3 different ways to implement it. Thankfully that problem doesn't exist with C# /s
    - The_rationalist 6y ago
      All your points except the last one do not apply to Kotlin
      - bulldoa 6y ago
        is kotlin slow to compile
        snuxoll 6y ago
        It's certainly slower than javac (which is pretty freaking fast - maybe not in comparison to go, but it's no slouch), but it certainly mops the floor with scalac.
    - yashap 6y ago
      What are the last Scala/sbt versions you’ve used? Scala compilation times (and sbt startup times) have improved dramatically over time, it’s reasonably fast now. In the past 3 years, the Scala compiler has gotten literally twice as fast. I don’t have hard numbers for sbt, but it feels like it has improved by much more than that. For a mid-sized web service (tens of thousands of LOC), a clean compile might take ~30-40 seconds, but you rarely do those. Incremental compiles take more like single-digit seconds, and for most projects you can have a solid “compile on save” type setup that makes it pretty unnoticeable. And sbt itself, which used to be very slow to startup (sometimes 10-20 seconds), now starts up in a couple seconds. It’s not lightning fast like Go, but it’s way faster than it used to be. Not much of a pain point anymore unless you’re dealing with truly huge projects.
  - svick 6y ago
    > C# is as verbose as it was years ago. It isn't. Pretty much every release (including C# 9.0) adds some features that make your code more concise.
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  This made me chuckle. I think it's broader than C# -> F# though. Java also has closures and higher-order functions, and in many debates on this forum it seems like OOP proponents aren't aware that these features are grafts from functional programming. OOP programmers also seem to have (finally) come around to the consensus that composition is preferable to inheritance. So if there is a long con, I think it is about turning OOP programmers into ML or functional programmers. :p
  - thoraway1010 6y ago
    yeah for composition - I ALWAYS liked it much better!
    - snuxoll 6y ago
      Some languages even have syntax sugar for it built-in, coughKotlincough class Foo(b: Bar) : Bar by b
      - _old_dude_ 6y ago
        This is the most controversial feature of Kotlin. The delegation is better than inheritance because you don't get all the methods from the base class if you don't need them. At my company, we have banned it, because if you add a method to Bar the method is automatically added to Foo which makes the delegation as fragile as the inheritance.
        throwaway894345 6y ago
        Go has a similar feature, and while I don't know that I would say it's especially controversial or frowned upon, it's good form to only use it sparingly if at all. I still wouldn't say that it is anywhere near as fragile as inheritance; however--I think inheritance's fragility comes from its polymorphism (not sure about Kotlin, but in Go, the wrapper class/struct can't be passed into a function that expects the component's type).
        6y ago

corysama 6y ago

C# is Microsoft Research's 20-year-long con to turn Java programmers into OCaml programmers so slowly that they don't notice.

rad_gruchalski 6y ago
With Kotlin and Scala in existence, that ain’t going to happen. C# is as verbose as it was years ago. After years of Scala collections, eithers, options, why would anybody consider C#. Just look at plumbing with init, data records and with. That is what a case class with val properties in Scala gives. But congratulations to the team on shipping v9.
- couchcombinator 6y ago
  Because Scala takes mind-boggingly long to compile. Because Scala has so many features that anything has at least 3 different ways to implement it. Because it’s very easy to write unreadable code in scala, not so much in C#. Because Scala uses JVM, while C# has access to .NET (yes this is an advantage for many developers).
  - whycombagator 6y ago
    > Because Scala has so many features that anything has at least 3 different ways to implement it. Thankfully that problem doesn't exist with C# /s
  - The_rationalist 6y ago
    All your points except the last one do not apply to Kotlin
    - bulldoa 6y ago
      is kotlin slow to compile
      - snuxoll 6y ago
        It's certainly slower than javac (which is pretty freaking fast - maybe not in comparison to go, but it's no slouch), but it certainly mops the floor with scalac.
  - yashap 6y ago
    What are the last Scala/sbt versions you’ve used? Scala compilation times (and sbt startup times) have improved dramatically over time, it’s reasonably fast now. In the past 3 years, the Scala compiler has gotten literally twice as fast. I don’t have hard numbers for sbt, but it feels like it has improved by much more than that. For a mid-sized web service (tens of thousands of LOC), a clean compile might take ~30-40 seconds, but you rarely do those. Incremental compiles take more like single-digit seconds, and for most projects you can have a solid “compile on save” type setup that makes it pretty unnoticeable. And sbt itself, which used to be very slow to startup (sometimes 10-20 seconds), now starts up in a couple seconds. It’s not lightning fast like Go, but it’s way faster than it used to be. Not much of a pain point anymore unless you’re dealing with truly huge projects.
- svick 6y ago
  > C# is as verbose as it was years ago. It isn't. Pretty much every release (including C# 9.0) adds some features that make your code more concise.
throwaway894345 6y ago
This made me chuckle. I think it's broader than C# -> F# though. Java also has closures and higher-order functions, and in many debates on this forum it seems like OOP proponents aren't aware that these features are grafts from functional programming. OOP programmers also seem to have (finally) come around to the consensus that composition is preferable to inheritance. So if there is a long con, I think it is about turning OOP programmers into ML or functional programmers. :p
- thoraway1010 6y ago
  yeah for composition - I ALWAYS liked it much better!
  - snuxoll 6y ago
    Some languages even have syntax sugar for it built-in, coughKotlincough class Foo(b: Bar) : Bar by b
    - _old_dude_ 6y ago
      This is the most controversial feature of Kotlin. The delegation is better than inheritance because you don't get all the methods from the base class if you don't need them. At my company, we have banned it, because if you add a method to Bar the method is automatically added to Foo which makes the delegation as fragile as the inheritance.
      - throwaway894345 6y ago
        Go has a similar feature, and while I don't know that I would say it's especially controversial or frowned upon, it's good form to only use it sparingly if at all. I still wouldn't say that it is anywhere near as fragile as inheritance; however--I think inheritance's fragility comes from its polymorphism (not sure about Kotlin, but in Go, the wrapper class/struct can't be passed into a function that expects the component's type).
      - 6y ago