5 ms·

Given how long governments have kept records (domesday book, bablylon) and how few governments have slipped into totalitarian hellscapes, I'm not as worried abo

Given how long governments have kept records (domesday book, bablylon) and how few governments have slipped into totalitarian hellscapes, I'm not as worried about this as you are. I'm more concerned about the patriot act & etc because a lot of those survelliance programs are actively centralized. The system I outlined would work XX% as well if it were entirely optional and if it were managed by independent agents. You could sign up with "ID Corp", or a credit union, or whatever. And they could keep your records.

viklove 6y ago
The government of Babylon had a list of every business its residents set foot in? Damn, didn't realize their tech was so great back then.
- cfmcdonald 6y ago
  No, and neither did Nazi Germany. What the GP said was "Honestly, the history of the 20th century should be the closed book final assessment on why it's permanently a bad idea for governments to collect files on people." This is a much wider claim than "Subway shouldn't collect information on its customers on behalf of the government." BTW most people already have a centrally tracked record of every store they've been in, their credit card records, which the government can subpoena.
  - viklove 6y ago
    fuck hn
    - cfmcdonald 6y ago
      Your response seems needlessly confrontational. I haven't even expressed a position on the original question of the Washington state policy. > There's a huge difference between a private CC# that you voluntarily use, and a government issued id# that you are required to provide on entry. No one has proposed requiring a government id to enter a store, AFAIK. The huge difference is mostly academic for most people. Very few people outside the criminal underground transact solely in cash/bitcoin so that they can't be tracked. > It's ok though, I'm of the opinion that we (as humans) do not deserve basic rights such as privacy, because we're fools who don't value them. Didn't realize HNers would help prove my point, though. "We're fools" - is this the opposite of the royal we, where we means you? > So, are you willing to provide us with a list of every store you've visited in the last month? I'll be waiting. I don't see how posting that list on HN in response to a request by someone unknown to me for no reason is analogous to providing it to my government in order to help with contact tracing. Anyway the list would be very short, since I've been avoiding public places... well, like the plague.
ac2u 6y ago
>and how few governments have slipped into totalitarian hellscapes Just because it's improbable doesn't mean we shouldn't protect against tail risks. Not taking meaningful tail risk protection is why we're in the covid-19 problem we are now. >I'm not as worried about this as you are. I wouldn't want to be presumptions of your background, but have you talked with many people from countries where they or their parents were victims of state bullying via secret police that kept files on them? >I'm more concerned about the patriot act & etc because a lot of those survelliance programs are actively centralized. I don't think what we're talking about is any different in the long run. >The system I outlined would work XX% as well if it were entirely optional and if it were managed by independent agents. I'm actually not opposed to a temporary system of tracking like this in order to stamp out coronavirus. However, it needs to have iron-clad provisions in law to make it time limited, along with laws that mandate that independent international observers witness data audits and subsequent destruction of said data. Unfortunately, when governments legislate provisions, they're usually in the form of "we promise to be very good" platitudes.

viklove 6y ago

The government of Babylon had a list of every business its residents set foot in? Damn, didn't realize their tech was so great back then.

cfmcdonald 6y ago
No, and neither did Nazi Germany. What the GP said was "Honestly, the history of the 20th century should be the closed book final assessment on why it's permanently a bad idea for governments to collect files on people." This is a much wider claim than "Subway shouldn't collect information on its customers on behalf of the government." BTW most people already have a centrally tracked record of every store they've been in, their credit card records, which the government can subpoena.
- viklove 6y ago
  fuck hn
  - cfmcdonald 6y ago
    Your response seems needlessly confrontational. I haven't even expressed a position on the original question of the Washington state policy. > There's a huge difference between a private CC# that you voluntarily use, and a government issued id# that you are required to provide on entry. No one has proposed requiring a government id to enter a store, AFAIK. The huge difference is mostly academic for most people. Very few people outside the criminal underground transact solely in cash/bitcoin so that they can't be tracked. > It's ok though, I'm of the opinion that we (as humans) do not deserve basic rights such as privacy, because we're fools who don't value them. Didn't realize HNers would help prove my point, though. "We're fools" - is this the opposite of the royal we, where we means you? > So, are you willing to provide us with a list of every store you've visited in the last month? I'll be waiting. I don't see how posting that list on HN in response to a request by someone unknown to me for no reason is analogous to providing it to my government in order to help with contact tracing. Anyway the list would be very short, since I've been avoiding public places... well, like the plague.

ac2u 6y ago

>and how few governments have slipped into totalitarian hellscapes Just because it's improbable doesn't mean we shouldn't protect against tail risks. Not taking meaningful tail risk protection is why we're in the covid-19 problem we are now. >I'm not as worried about this as you are. I wouldn't want to be presumptions of your background, but have you talked with many people from countries where they or their parents were victims of state bullying via secret police that kept files on them? >I'm more concerned about the patriot act & etc because a lot of those survelliance programs are actively centralized. I don't think what we're talking about is any different in the long run. >The system I outlined would work XX% as well if it were entirely optional and if it were managed by independent agents. I'm actually not opposed to a temporary system of tracking like this in order to stamp out coronavirus. However, it needs to have iron-clad provisions in law to make it time limited, along with laws that mandate that independent international observers witness data audits and subsequent destruction of said data. Unfortunately, when governments legislate provisions, they're usually in the form of "we promise to be very good" platitudes.