6 ms·

There's an old saying that people deserve their rulers.

Afforess 6y ago
This attitude is toxic and worse, incorrect. The majority of Americans did not vote for our President. I live in Austin, and my state district in TX includes a tiny slice of a city hundreds of miles away, Houston. Many state districts are like this, gerrymandered to prevent my vote from counting. Some places have it worse, DC, the capital, has no representation at all (fun trivia: Google the DC license plate). The voters didn't ask nor vote for our government. The government picked the voters...
- vwcx 6y ago
  As a DC resident, it does feel really frustrating, at a time when the nation's politics feel especially important, to not even have a representative to speak with/pressure. Especially when the chief argument against DC statehood has been that it'll tip the Senate to the left. BS.
- Fricken 6y ago
  You can rise up and fix the system and get the leader you deserve, or you can complain about and do nothing else, and in that case you'll end up with the leader you deserve.
  - Afforess 6y ago
    This is more of the same sanctimonious toxicity. You don't know me. I already donate to act blue. I already go to political rally's. I already help get friends to go vote. I already am a member of local political groups. I am still not represented. No state or federal ballot I have ever cast has counted. Please don't tell people that they would ever deserve our current leaders. People deserve safety, stability, and basic decency, no matter what. Even if they make a mistake. Especially then. People deserve better.
    - fractallyte 6y ago
      Stop paying your taxes. It's not meant as a flippant comment. Taxes are an exchange from citizens to state, in return for a certain duty of care. Yes, the system is set up to inflict severe punishment on dissenters - because tax money enables (or disables) government. But, the more people who rally around your political protest, the more effective it becomes...
    - jbay808 6y ago
      Perhaps we can say, you got the leader that a large number of your countrymates deserved?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - withdavidli 6y ago
      Disclaimer that I use similar remarks to the quote you disagree with. This is with the understanding that the price that needs to be paid will literally take lives at times, and that there is little to no fairness at who bears that cost. That being said, you seem to be quite active politically and doing more than most in this arena. At what point do you give up and move to where you think you'll be represented? This is assuming you have the means to go elsewhere. Some people operate on moving to where they are treated best, that includes the option of a different country.
      - kelnos 6y ago
        > Disclaimer that I use similar remarks to the quote you disagree with. This is with the understanding that the price that needs to be paid will literally take lives at times I guess it's easy to make those kinds of remarks when you know you won't be the one paying that price, huh?
        withdavidli 6y ago
        I put zero reliance on external forces making the change I want to see and make decisions without this being a factor. It cuts out false hope. If I'm not willing to pay the price, I should not expect change.
  - JSavageOne 6y ago
    > You can rise up and fix the system and get the leader you deserve No individual can just "rise up and fix the system".
    - Fricken 6y ago
      A clusterfuck of 300 million individuals, getting the leaders they deserve. You can't organize. You can't think outside the system that abuses you. A tiny cabal of openly corrupt individuals can push you all around. You got the leader you deserve.
      - kelnos 6y ago
        > You got the leader you deserve. Repeating it over and over in every post you make doesn't make it true. It just shows your callous disregard for humanity, which isn't likely to win you much agreement.
        Fricken 6y ago
        You guys are showing a callous disregard for reality. Read about all the societies that have succumb to tyranny, it has happened many times. America is no special exception, and it's making all the same mistakes. Keep singing Kumbayah and see where it gets you.
- nmfisher 6y ago
  The 50% of people who didn’t vote in the last election are equally responsible for the current President as those who did (and every president prior, too). I agree wholeheartedly that a democratic government reflects its voters. A largely apathetic, non-voting populace exaggerates the effect of gerrymandering, campaign finance and media manipulation.
  - JSavageOne 6y ago
    You realize Trump lost the popular vote right? Also due to the electoral college and the winner-take-all way in which voting is designed in the U.S, your vote for president only matters if you live in a swing state. If you live in California or New York, there's basically no point in voting for president because there's such a large Democratic majority and it's winner-take-all.
    - nmfisher 6y ago
      > You realize Trump lost the popular vote right? I am well aware, but that has nothing to do with the almost half of eligible voters who didn't vote at all. Californians who didn't vote in 2016 (~9m) far outnumber Hillary's margin over Trump (~4.3m). There's only "no point voting for president in California" because 9m Californians don't vote. That's nothing to do with "the system", that's a choice that every single one of those 9m voters is making. Which brings me back to my original point, which is that voter apathy exacerbates the influence of gerrymandering and campaign spending in winning elections.
      - JSavageOne 6y ago
        > If you live in California or New York, there's basically no point in voting for president because there's such a large Democratic majority and it's winner-take-all. Winner-take-all in any state that leans predominantly in one direction means that your vote doesn't matter. Unless those 9 million people happened to all be of the Republican party (extremely unlikely), it wouldn't have made any difference had they voted or not. Winner-take-all means all the delegates go to the winner. It has everything to do with the system. Instead of just preaching that people should vote, maybe take a look at why they aren't. Maybe some don't because they can't get off work and unlike many other countries, election day isn't a national holiday. Or maybe because they don't feel like it makes a difference. If you don't live in a swing state, then one is right to feel like their presidential vote doesn't make a difference because as I just explained, it doesn't, and it shouldn't be that way.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- twomoretime 6y ago
  You miss the applicability of the saying because you drastically overestimate the capability of the average American. Hell, ignoring the deplorable level to which standards have been lowered by perverse incentives to pass students, the US only has an average of 80 HS graduation rate. These are your voters. People who struggled to make it through high school have just as much of a day over your governments, your legislation, as you do. Do you expect uneducated and/or ignorant voters to make good decisions? https://www.publicschoolreview.com/average-graduation-rate-stats/national-data https://www.publicschoolreview.com/average-graduation-rate-s...
toss1 6y ago
Which is only true as a tautology. Start with considering skewed results when an electoral process is skewed by asymmetric warfare of an adversary. Or consider regulatory capture by small subsets of the society, not visible until the damage is done....
flipgimble 6y ago
You're right that nobody is blameless. But we can't abandon everyone to destructive whims of the minority. In the US only about 23% of the possible voting public won the last presidential election. It's not just voting. I'm to blame for inaction and not running for office. As an engineer I could have something credible to say about many pressing issues. By why would I ever enter a race that is decided not on any values I uphold, but by manipulating the under-educated. Somehow the message did not win many races: "Vote for a scientist or an engineer or you may die from the next catastrophe that nobody believed us when we said we should prepare for it."

This attitude is toxic and worse, incorrect. The majority of Americans did not vote for our President. I live in Austin, and my state district in TX includes a tiny slice of a city hundreds of miles away, Houston. Many state districts are like this, gerrymandered to prevent my vote from counting. Some places have it worse, DC, the capital, has no representation at all (fun trivia: Google the DC license plate). The voters didn't ask nor vote for our government. The government picked the voters...

vwcx 6y ago
As a DC resident, it does feel really frustrating, at a time when the nation's politics feel especially important, to not even have a representative to speak with/pressure. Especially when the chief argument against DC statehood has been that it'll tip the Senate to the left. BS.
Fricken 6y ago
You can rise up and fix the system and get the leader you deserve, or you can complain about and do nothing else, and in that case you'll end up with the leader you deserve.
- Afforess 6y ago
  This is more of the same sanctimonious toxicity. You don't know me. I already donate to act blue. I already go to political rally's. I already help get friends to go vote. I already am a member of local political groups. I am still not represented. No state or federal ballot I have ever cast has counted. Please don't tell people that they would ever deserve our current leaders. People deserve safety, stability, and basic decency, no matter what. Even if they make a mistake. Especially then. People deserve better.
  - fractallyte 6y ago
    Stop paying your taxes. It's not meant as a flippant comment. Taxes are an exchange from citizens to state, in return for a certain duty of care. Yes, the system is set up to inflict severe punishment on dissenters - because tax money enables (or disables) government. But, the more people who rally around your political protest, the more effective it becomes...
  - jbay808 6y ago
    Perhaps we can say, you got the leader that a large number of your countrymates deserved?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - withdavidli 6y ago
    Disclaimer that I use similar remarks to the quote you disagree with. This is with the understanding that the price that needs to be paid will literally take lives at times, and that there is little to no fairness at who bears that cost. That being said, you seem to be quite active politically and doing more than most in this arena. At what point do you give up and move to where you think you'll be represented? This is assuming you have the means to go elsewhere. Some people operate on moving to where they are treated best, that includes the option of a different country.
    - kelnos 6y ago
      > Disclaimer that I use similar remarks to the quote you disagree with. This is with the understanding that the price that needs to be paid will literally take lives at times I guess it's easy to make those kinds of remarks when you know you won't be the one paying that price, huh?
      - withdavidli 6y ago
        I put zero reliance on external forces making the change I want to see and make decisions without this being a factor. It cuts out false hope. If I'm not willing to pay the price, I should not expect change.
- JSavageOne 6y ago
  > You can rise up and fix the system and get the leader you deserve No individual can just "rise up and fix the system".
  - Fricken 6y ago
    A clusterfuck of 300 million individuals, getting the leaders they deserve. You can't organize. You can't think outside the system that abuses you. A tiny cabal of openly corrupt individuals can push you all around. You got the leader you deserve.
    - kelnos 6y ago
      > You got the leader you deserve. Repeating it over and over in every post you make doesn't make it true. It just shows your callous disregard for humanity, which isn't likely to win you much agreement.
      - Fricken 6y ago
        You guys are showing a callous disregard for reality. Read about all the societies that have succumb to tyranny, it has happened many times. America is no special exception, and it's making all the same mistakes. Keep singing Kumbayah and see where it gets you.
nmfisher 6y ago
The 50% of people who didn’t vote in the last election are equally responsible for the current President as those who did (and every president prior, too). I agree wholeheartedly that a democratic government reflects its voters. A largely apathetic, non-voting populace exaggerates the effect of gerrymandering, campaign finance and media manipulation.
- JSavageOne 6y ago
  You realize Trump lost the popular vote right? Also due to the electoral college and the winner-take-all way in which voting is designed in the U.S, your vote for president only matters if you live in a swing state. If you live in California or New York, there's basically no point in voting for president because there's such a large Democratic majority and it's winner-take-all.
  - nmfisher 6y ago
    > You realize Trump lost the popular vote right? I am well aware, but that has nothing to do with the almost half of eligible voters who didn't vote at all. Californians who didn't vote in 2016 (~9m) far outnumber Hillary's margin over Trump (~4.3m). There's only "no point voting for president in California" because 9m Californians don't vote. That's nothing to do with "the system", that's a choice that every single one of those 9m voters is making. Which brings me back to my original point, which is that voter apathy exacerbates the influence of gerrymandering and campaign spending in winning elections.
    - JSavageOne 6y ago
      > If you live in California or New York, there's basically no point in voting for president because there's such a large Democratic majority and it's winner-take-all. Winner-take-all in any state that leans predominantly in one direction means that your vote doesn't matter. Unless those 9 million people happened to all be of the Republican party (extremely unlikely), it wouldn't have made any difference had they voted or not. Winner-take-all means all the delegates go to the winner. It has everything to do with the system. Instead of just preaching that people should vote, maybe take a look at why they aren't. Maybe some don't because they can't get off work and unlike many other countries, election day isn't a national holiday. Or maybe because they don't feel like it makes a difference. If you don't live in a swing state, then one is right to feel like their presidential vote doesn't make a difference because as I just explained, it doesn't, and it shouldn't be that way.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
twomoretime 6y ago
You miss the applicability of the saying because you drastically overestimate the capability of the average American. Hell, ignoring the deplorable level to which standards have been lowered by perverse incentives to pass students, the US only has an average of 80 HS graduation rate. These are your voters. People who struggled to make it through high school have just as much of a day over your governments, your legislation, as you do. Do you expect uneducated and/or ignorant voters to make good decisions? https://www.publicschoolreview.com/average-graduation-rate-stats/national-data https://www.publicschoolreview.com/average-graduation-rate-s...

toss1 6y ago

Which is only true as a tautology. Start with considering skewed results when an electoral process is skewed by asymmetric warfare of an adversary. Or consider regulatory capture by small subsets of the society, not visible until the damage is done....

flipgimble 6y ago

You're right that nobody is blameless. But we can't abandon everyone to destructive whims of the minority. In the US only about 23% of the possible voting public won the last presidential election. It's not just voting. I'm to blame for inaction and not running for office. As an engineer I could have something credible to say about many pressing issues. By why would I ever enter a race that is decided not on any values I uphold, but by manipulating the under-educated. Somehow the message did not win many races: "Vote for a scientist or an engineer or you may die from the next catastrophe that nobody believed us when we said we should prepare for it."