9 ms·

To play devil's advocate here: something doesn't need to kill to be an effective Bioweapon. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics." -Sun Tzu

by yutyut 6y ago

To play devil's advocate here: something doesn't need to kill to be an effective Bioweapon. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics." -Sun Tzu COVID has been a logistical nightmare. For everyone. For the record, no--I don't believe anybody 'engineered' it [or has used it]* as a bioweapon. *Edit for clarity

nikofeyn 6y ago
why in the world would someone release a bioweapon that would have major and potentially permanent repercussions for their own people and economy?
- yutyut 6y ago
  Agreed, that wouldn't be a very smart thing to do at all.
  - nikofeyn 6y ago
    yes, indeed. however, you'll note by the downvotes no one here wants to be reasonable. it's a trend i've noticed on hacker news. this site claims a lot to be unbiased and evidence based, but i have noticed when it comes to china, all reason floats out the window. it's a dangerous effect because there are actual problems that are exacerbated and confused by propaganda and unfounded claims from the other side, which also hides problems with the other side. it's just not good for anyone and creates a cess pool of misinformation.
    - hoot 6y ago
      I've noticed this as well. Does China have any stake in HN that would allow them to sway discussions?
      - nikofeyn 6y ago
        i don't know regarding investments. but just to be clear, the trend i have noticed is a clear anti-chinese sentiment on hacker news. it comes up a lot. i think it's simply because a lot of americans are on hacker news, and there is a gross level of anti-chinese sentiment in the united states in general, probably more-so from educated people.
        dang 6y ago
        Last I looked, about half of the HN community is in the US. Since that includes many expats, presumably less than half of HN users are American. An overwhelming majority are from Western countries though.
        surge 6y ago
        It's anti-CCP sentiment, no one here is hating on HK, or Taiwan, or the ethnically Chinese diaspora, or even the average people in China. The HK protests were just last year and are still going. The 996 movement got a lot of notice and support here. Multiple articles have been posted here about pollution and the Uyghur re-education camps. Anyone well informed and educated are hyper aware of whats been going on in China from the environmental pollution, to Internet censorship, to civil liberties and human rights violations and they treatment of ethnic and religious minorities. You can't be principled and oppose these things in your own country, rail against an administration that does these things, and then give another country a free pass. They're currently kicking black people out in the streets out of their homes and giving them no where to go because of a ban on foreigners, even though those foreigners never left the country during the pandemic and are no more risk at spreading the disease than anyone else. It's racism, pure and simple. https://www.france24.com/en/20200411-if-you-re-black-you-can-t-go-out-africans-in-china-face-racism-in-covid-19-crackdown https://www.france24.com/en/20200411-if-you-re-black-you-can... https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3079497/us-warns-african-americans-avoid-guangzhou-after-reports-black https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3079497/us-w... I mean, many of the things we're seeing in China currently are the kind of things that were happening in Germany in the 30's that were warning signs. Just calling out things that are well documented in the news is enough to get down voted mysteriously, maybe the wǔmáo's have become aware of this community.
      - dang 6y ago
        No, and what you're all observing is the most routine of all phenomena on an internet forum when the topic is divisive. People make diametrically opposite interpretations of the exact same threads based on their pre-existing positions. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20notice%20dislike&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
- mc32 6y ago
  No normal person would, but accidents do happen especially if you’re lax with protocol and also there crazy people like Amerithrax incidents back in early 2000s where presumably someone with access seems to have had a grudge or something. That said, it’s one possibility among others, though the animal reservoir theory is the most viable and accepted at this time.
  - nikofeyn 6y ago
    i feel it's a totally dangerous thing to be claiming such things though. it's an incredibly unlikely possibility and strong evidence should be provided before spreading rumors. we have no way of knowing who started these rumors in the first place. for example, this article is a great read: http://nautil.us/issue/83/intelligence/the-man-who-saw-the-pandemic-coming http://nautil.us/issue/83/intelligence/the-man-who-saw-the-p... people making baseless claims about the virus, which is happening everywhere and in particular is coming from the u.s., will only seek to harm things for everyone in the long run. it will cause governments to clam up (already happening) and has politicized the virus. now, experts' opinions and life work, like that found in the above article, will continue to be ignored in the chaos that is ensuing. if the experts on zoonotic viruses are to be believed (why wouldn't you?), then it is clear that there are systematic problems that are leading to the increasing crossover of these zoonotic viruses. by politicizing the virus and hyper focusing on its political enemy, the u.s. is making this thing much, much, much worse (in addition to increasing the current spread within its own borders) and will lessen the impact on preventing future outbreaks. we as a species already struggle to address the issues that cause these outbreaks (overpopulation, encroachment on habitats, socioeconomic issues, etc.), and these actions of rumors and associated behavior, found on this site even, will bury the actual problems, turning everything into a childish and chaotic argument.
- louthy 6y ago
  If it affected their own people less, gaining a net advantage over other nations. A totalitarian/authoritarian state will always be able to manage an epidemic more effectively than a democratic one. Disclaimer: I don’t believe this, just playing devil’s advocate
  - hoot 6y ago
    Yep, China has recovered while the rest of the world is still crippled. I wouldn't put it past China to cause harm to their own citizens to gain a position of power. Disclaimer: Also don't believe this, just playing along.
    - nikofeyn 6y ago
      > Disclaimer: Also don't believe this, just playing along. everybody keeps saying this, but just stop. it doesn't help and it confuses. all you do is bolster people who skip over your "disclaimer", even if you actually do believe your disclaimer.
- katbyte 6y ago
  if they have confidence it will damage their opponents more than theirs?
- 2019-nCoV 6y ago
  It doesn't need to be a deliberate release of a bioweapon to be considered biological warfare. The simple act of knowingly obscuring the transmissibility and extent of the virus, leading to rampant international spread, is biological warfare.
  - nikofeyn 6y ago
    if that's your definition of biological warfare, then you need to consider to yourself that the u.s. government is then waging biological warfare against its own people. note that i don't agree with your definition.
    - 2019-nCoV 6y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_warfare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_warfare > Biological warfare [...] is the use of biological toxins or infectious agents such as bacteria, viruses, insects, and fungi with the intent to kill or incapacitate humans, animals or plants as an act of war. Knowingly allowing the spread of a highly contagious, lethal virus fits the definition. The only point of contention is whether the party's actions were due to incompetence or malice.
      - nikofeyn 6y ago
        the quoted definition is not the definition you posted. and if you are so up in arms about this, what are you going to do about the u.s. waging biological warfare on its own people?

by yutyut 6y ago

nikofeyn 6y ago

why in the world would someone release a bioweapon that would have major and potentially permanent repercussions for their own people and economy?

yutyut 6y ago
Agreed, that wouldn't be a very smart thing to do at all.
- nikofeyn 6y ago
  yes, indeed. however, you'll note by the downvotes no one here wants to be reasonable. it's a trend i've noticed on hacker news. this site claims a lot to be unbiased and evidence based, but i have noticed when it comes to china, all reason floats out the window. it's a dangerous effect because there are actual problems that are exacerbated and confused by propaganda and unfounded claims from the other side, which also hides problems with the other side. it's just not good for anyone and creates a cess pool of misinformation.
  - hoot 6y ago
    I've noticed this as well. Does China have any stake in HN that would allow them to sway discussions?
    - nikofeyn 6y ago
      i don't know regarding investments. but just to be clear, the trend i have noticed is a clear anti-chinese sentiment on hacker news. it comes up a lot. i think it's simply because a lot of americans are on hacker news, and there is a gross level of anti-chinese sentiment in the united states in general, probably more-so from educated people.
      - dang 6y ago
        Last I looked, about half of the HN community is in the US. Since that includes many expats, presumably less than half of HN users are American. An overwhelming majority are from Western countries though.
      - surge 6y ago
        It's anti-CCP sentiment, no one here is hating on HK, or Taiwan, or the ethnically Chinese diaspora, or even the average people in China. The HK protests were just last year and are still going. The 996 movement got a lot of notice and support here. Multiple articles have been posted here about pollution and the Uyghur re-education camps. Anyone well informed and educated are hyper aware of whats been going on in China from the environmental pollution, to Internet censorship, to civil liberties and human rights violations and they treatment of ethnic and religious minorities. You can't be principled and oppose these things in your own country, rail against an administration that does these things, and then give another country a free pass. They're currently kicking black people out in the streets out of their homes and giving them no where to go because of a ban on foreigners, even though those foreigners never left the country during the pandemic and are no more risk at spreading the disease than anyone else. It's racism, pure and simple. https://www.france24.com/en/20200411-if-you-re-black-you-can-t-go-out-africans-in-china-face-racism-in-covid-19-crackdown https://www.france24.com/en/20200411-if-you-re-black-you-can... https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3079497/us-warns-african-americans-avoid-guangzhou-after-reports-black https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3079497/us-w... I mean, many of the things we're seeing in China currently are the kind of things that were happening in Germany in the 30's that were warning signs. Just calling out things that are well documented in the news is enough to get down voted mysteriously, maybe the wǔmáo's have become aware of this community.
    - dang 6y ago
      No, and what you're all observing is the most routine of all phenomena on an internet forum when the topic is divisive. People make diametrically opposite interpretations of the exact same threads based on their pre-existing positions. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20notice%20dislike&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
mc32 6y ago
No normal person would, but accidents do happen especially if you’re lax with protocol and also there crazy people like Amerithrax incidents back in early 2000s where presumably someone with access seems to have had a grudge or something. That said, it’s one possibility among others, though the animal reservoir theory is the most viable and accepted at this time.
- nikofeyn 6y ago
  i feel it's a totally dangerous thing to be claiming such things though. it's an incredibly unlikely possibility and strong evidence should be provided before spreading rumors. we have no way of knowing who started these rumors in the first place. for example, this article is a great read: http://nautil.us/issue/83/intelligence/the-man-who-saw-the-pandemic-coming http://nautil.us/issue/83/intelligence/the-man-who-saw-the-p... people making baseless claims about the virus, which is happening everywhere and in particular is coming from the u.s., will only seek to harm things for everyone in the long run. it will cause governments to clam up (already happening) and has politicized the virus. now, experts' opinions and life work, like that found in the above article, will continue to be ignored in the chaos that is ensuing. if the experts on zoonotic viruses are to be believed (why wouldn't you?), then it is clear that there are systematic problems that are leading to the increasing crossover of these zoonotic viruses. by politicizing the virus and hyper focusing on its political enemy, the u.s. is making this thing much, much, much worse (in addition to increasing the current spread within its own borders) and will lessen the impact on preventing future outbreaks. we as a species already struggle to address the issues that cause these outbreaks (overpopulation, encroachment on habitats, socioeconomic issues, etc.), and these actions of rumors and associated behavior, found on this site even, will bury the actual problems, turning everything into a childish and chaotic argument.
louthy 6y ago
If it affected their own people less, gaining a net advantage over other nations. A totalitarian/authoritarian state will always be able to manage an epidemic more effectively than a democratic one. Disclaimer: I don’t believe this, just playing devil’s advocate
- hoot 6y ago
  Yep, China has recovered while the rest of the world is still crippled. I wouldn't put it past China to cause harm to their own citizens to gain a position of power. Disclaimer: Also don't believe this, just playing along.
  - nikofeyn 6y ago
    > Disclaimer: Also don't believe this, just playing along. everybody keeps saying this, but just stop. it doesn't help and it confuses. all you do is bolster people who skip over your "disclaimer", even if you actually do believe your disclaimer.
katbyte 6y ago
if they have confidence it will damage their opponents more than theirs?
2019-nCoV 6y ago
It doesn't need to be a deliberate release of a bioweapon to be considered biological warfare. The simple act of knowingly obscuring the transmissibility and extent of the virus, leading to rampant international spread, is biological warfare.
- nikofeyn 6y ago
  if that's your definition of biological warfare, then you need to consider to yourself that the u.s. government is then waging biological warfare against its own people. note that i don't agree with your definition.
  - 2019-nCoV 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_warfare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_warfare > Biological warfare [...] is the use of biological toxins or infectious agents such as bacteria, viruses, insects, and fungi with the intent to kill or incapacitate humans, animals or plants as an act of war. Knowingly allowing the spread of a highly contagious, lethal virus fits the definition. The only point of contention is whether the party's actions were due to incompetence or malice.
    - nikofeyn 6y ago
      the quoted definition is not the definition you posted. and if you are so up in arms about this, what are you going to do about the u.s. waging biological warfare on its own people?