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I race motorcycless and so have some experience with high horsepower small engines. My first thought is I wonder how high the compression is to get this HP wit

I race motorcycless and so have some experience with high horsepower small engines. My first thought is I wonder how high the compression is to get this HP with only 3 cylinders? With high compression, everything wears much faster and components like pistons, connecting rods, and bearings need to be replaced at regular intervals for the engine to remain reliable. Additionally frequent oil changes become necessary as the oil breaks down more quickly under these conditions and metal shavings from wear build up in the oil. Things like connecting rods become stressed and need to be replaced at regular intervals for the engine to remain reliable. I’d imagine that the Konigsegg buyer probably doesn’t care about maintenance costs but they might be irritated at the service intervals. I wonder how much maintenance that will be?

jjjensen90 7y ago
Cars in the class of Koenigseggs are actually rarely driven, things like wear and tear are often not a concern at all, what's more important is exclusivity and exotic-ness. Maintenance is something a buyer in this class doesn't even consider in my experience.
- zeusk 7y ago
  They're actually marketing this freevalve tech for consumer cars. They already have a tech demonstration partner (a Chinese car maker).
  - MegaButts 7y ago
    I'm curious if it will be adopted. I assume cost is a big issue. Hyundai considered it, but decided to roll their own (of course they were already pretty invested in their own technology, but Hyundai is known for reliability and Koenigsegg is not). https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a31224648/hyundai-cvvd-system-explained/ https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a312246...
hi5eyes 7y ago
Konigsegg is part of the echelon with bugatti owners that have warehouses of cars
willyt 7y ago
1.0 litre 3 cyl petrol engine in my car makes 120hp and gets 50mpg extra urban. It has dynamic servicing and first service is currently shown as 550 days away. Obviously the 2.0 konigsegg makes 5 times the HP, but maybe double the cylinder volume and half the service time and you can ramp up the compression enough to multiply the hp by 5?
- hinkley 7y ago
  The article says 600 hp on high test fuel, 500 hp on conventional, but that’s still 167 hp per cylinder which is nuts.
- ska 7y ago
  That's relatively low hp for the displacement, so it's harder to extrapolate. For another comparison the 3 cylinder 765cc engine from Triumph (street version) does about 120 or 125 with a red line of 12.5k if I recall correctly. In racing form (i.e. the moto2 engine version) it pushes about 140 (I think mostly via tuning and a bit higher red line). This is naturally aspirated but probably a good rough guestimate for bounds of what you can do on regular fuel and air. This also shows you why just ramping up the compression won't get you there, you need to change the air pressure too. For the street version of the triumph engine the service interval is something like 10k miles, valves every 2nd one. If you scale that linearly you still "only" get close to 350 , so you have an idea of how much stress is on this design to push 600 on 2l. By comparison the inline 4s in motogp make 250+ from 1 liter, so that's getting closer. They do probably represent something close to what is possible without induction though.
  - consp 7y ago
    > If you scale that linearly you still "only" get close to 350 , so you have an idea of how much stress is on this design to push 600 on 2l. -Removed, I misunderstood the original post, still you can design an engine with more power if torque requirements are low, and they claim 280hp at 2l which is a lot but doable if you don't intent to run it like a roadcar and have infinite budget like with those super/hypercars-
hinkley 7y ago
It’s also a high rpm motor, which will still require lower tolerances and better materials. I don’t recall but don’t higher rpms have a lower rate of wear than higher compression?
- monkpit 7y ago
  Wouldn’t it require higher tolerances?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - namdnay 7y ago
    It’s kind of counter-intuitive, you’d expect lower tolerance to mean the tolerance for deviations is lower, or higher precision
    - monkpit 7y ago
      In practice, “high tolerance” is used to mean “tight tolerance”. “Tight” is more commonly heard, at least in the US.
  - BubRoss 7y ago
    Lower tolerance numbers, higher precision
  - hinkley 7y ago
    Tolerances are like margins of error. As the error range goes down, the exactness of the specification goes up. Or as the others said, the precision. If it makes you feel any better, I have to pause for a beat any time I try to put an adjective in front of 'tolerances' to make sure I don't sound like a dope.
kenOfYugen 7y ago
Mean Piston Speed [1] is a good indicator of engine longevity. ~16 m/s for automobile engines ~25 m/s for Formula one engines ~26.5 m/s for Koenigsegg’s 2.0-Liter [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_piston_speed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_piston_speed
- MegaButts 7y ago
  And Formula 1 engines are only meant to last hours (yes really, most engines don't even last one season), albeit at ridiculously high stress levels. If we extrapolate from this, where high performance drag cars typically last minutes (20 years ago they only lasted seconds), that would mean this engine might only be good for a couple of hours of driving around the track. Assuming this is true (I am not saying it is), this engine would be pretty worthless for anything other than being a collector's item or being used for 1 or 2 races before it had to be retired.
  - close04 7y ago
    > yes really, most engines don't even last one season "Even" one season? If they last more than one race it means they didn't push it hard enough so it makes sense that the engine last just marginally more than the race.
    - MegaButts 7y ago
      The new rules set the limit at 3 engines per season, which is 21 races plus testing. So it's a balancing act, but you definitely need to reuse the engine for more than 1 race.
      - magicalhippo 7y ago
        And for those not in the know, a F1 race is ~305km, and they have do two days of practice plus qualifying in a race weekend using the engines they have (same engine for qualifying as for racing). There's some more detail in this[1] article, where they point out the Mercedes F1 engine did over 3000 miles (~4900km) during pre-season testing without issues (most in race-like conditions). That said, from my impression it is usually the turbo or the hybrid systems that break down, it's rare for the actual engine block to be the issue barring specific production issues. [1]: https://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/mercedes-f1-engine-true-modern-marvel https://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/mercedes-f1-engine-...
kragen 7y ago
The cylinders are especially large, but the displacement is still only 2ℓ. I think the unusually high horsepower for a 2ℓ engine is not just because of high compression but also because ⓐ they normally run it at especially high revs, like your motorcycles; ⓑ they run it on a two-stroke cycle at low speeds, up to 3krpm; and ⓒ they optimized it to run on alcohols, which as you know have lower energy density but are better at keeping the engine cool.
- djrogers 7y ago
  The engine does not run as a 2 stroke below 3k, the article says it theoretically could but they haven’t tested that. Also, 8,500 RPM isn’t ‘especially high revs’ these days... And finally, it still produces 500HP on pump gas - even that is outrageously more than any other 3cyl engine available.
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    8500 is still pretty high for a turbo. most performance cars with turbos don't have a redline that high.
  - kragen 7y ago
    Huh, I appreciate the corrections.
ska 7y ago
The service intervals aren't good on a lot of cars in this class. This is mitigated by a lot of them not being driven much.
- Hamuko 7y ago
  These kinds of cars go bad by just being parked. Even if you don't move it at all in a year, you probably still need to have it serviced.
  - ska 7y ago
    I don't mean never driving, just rarely. So often in practice that means once a year even if your interval is 7 or even 5k. Nothing onerous. Besides, if you have one if these you have a bunch of other cars.
thetinguy 7y ago
Car oil can get additives that motorcycles cannot get because the engine and transmission share oil. Friction modifier can extend effective oil lifespan. 600 hp also requires e85.
- 4gotunameagain 7y ago
  Not totally true, a honda CRF450 for example has separate crank case and transmission oil
gameswithgo 7y ago
the continuously variable valves is the key here, you can have the engine make good power at very high rpm, AND very low rpm, AND in between.
- natmaka 7y ago
  Exactly. VVT (variable valve timing) was promising for decades, starting back from the early 1900, then in the 1980's VTEC ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VTEC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VTEC ) was much more promising, and now this. The delay between each major step is approximately half the previous one, let's plan for a new one in ~20 years.

jjjensen90 7y ago

Cars in the class of Koenigseggs are actually rarely driven, things like wear and tear are often not a concern at all, what's more important is exclusivity and exotic-ness. Maintenance is something a buyer in this class doesn't even consider in my experience.

zeusk 7y ago
They're actually marketing this freevalve tech for consumer cars. They already have a tech demonstration partner (a Chinese car maker).
- MegaButts 7y ago
  I'm curious if it will be adopted. I assume cost is a big issue. Hyundai considered it, but decided to roll their own (of course they were already pretty invested in their own technology, but Hyundai is known for reliability and Koenigsegg is not). https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a31224648/hyundai-cvvd-system-explained/ https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a312246...

hi5eyes 7y ago

Konigsegg is part of the echelon with bugatti owners that have warehouses of cars

willyt 7y ago

1.0 litre 3 cyl petrol engine in my car makes 120hp and gets 50mpg extra urban. It has dynamic servicing and first service is currently shown as 550 days away. Obviously the 2.0 konigsegg makes 5 times the HP, but maybe double the cylinder volume and half the service time and you can ramp up the compression enough to multiply the hp by 5?

hinkley 7y ago
The article says 600 hp on high test fuel, 500 hp on conventional, but that’s still 167 hp per cylinder which is nuts.
ska 7y ago
That's relatively low hp for the displacement, so it's harder to extrapolate. For another comparison the 3 cylinder 765cc engine from Triumph (street version) does about 120 or 125 with a red line of 12.5k if I recall correctly. In racing form (i.e. the moto2 engine version) it pushes about 140 (I think mostly via tuning and a bit higher red line). This is naturally aspirated but probably a good rough guestimate for bounds of what you can do on regular fuel and air. This also shows you why just ramping up the compression won't get you there, you need to change the air pressure too. For the street version of the triumph engine the service interval is something like 10k miles, valves every 2nd one. If you scale that linearly you still "only" get close to 350 , so you have an idea of how much stress is on this design to push 600 on 2l. By comparison the inline 4s in motogp make 250+ from 1 liter, so that's getting closer. They do probably represent something close to what is possible without induction though.
- consp 7y ago
  > If you scale that linearly you still "only" get close to 350 , so you have an idea of how much stress is on this design to push 600 on 2l. -Removed, I misunderstood the original post, still you can design an engine with more power if torque requirements are low, and they claim 280hp at 2l which is a lot but doable if you don't intent to run it like a roadcar and have infinite budget like with those super/hypercars-

hinkley 7y ago

It’s also a high rpm motor, which will still require lower tolerances and better materials. I don’t recall but don’t higher rpms have a lower rate of wear than higher compression?

monkpit 7y ago
Wouldn’t it require higher tolerances?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- namdnay 7y ago
  It’s kind of counter-intuitive, you’d expect lower tolerance to mean the tolerance for deviations is lower, or higher precision
  - monkpit 7y ago
    In practice, “high tolerance” is used to mean “tight tolerance”. “Tight” is more commonly heard, at least in the US.
- BubRoss 7y ago
  Lower tolerance numbers, higher precision
- hinkley 7y ago
  Tolerances are like margins of error. As the error range goes down, the exactness of the specification goes up. Or as the others said, the precision. If it makes you feel any better, I have to pause for a beat any time I try to put an adjective in front of 'tolerances' to make sure I don't sound like a dope.

kenOfYugen 7y ago

Mean Piston Speed [1] is a good indicator of engine longevity. ~16 m/s for automobile engines ~25 m/s for Formula one engines ~26.5 m/s for Koenigsegg’s 2.0-Liter [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_piston_speed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_piston_speed

MegaButts 7y ago
And Formula 1 engines are only meant to last hours (yes really, most engines don't even last one season), albeit at ridiculously high stress levels. If we extrapolate from this, where high performance drag cars typically last minutes (20 years ago they only lasted seconds), that would mean this engine might only be good for a couple of hours of driving around the track. Assuming this is true (I am not saying it is), this engine would be pretty worthless for anything other than being a collector's item or being used for 1 or 2 races before it had to be retired.
- close04 7y ago
  > yes really, most engines don't even last one season "Even" one season? If they last more than one race it means they didn't push it hard enough so it makes sense that the engine last just marginally more than the race.
  - MegaButts 7y ago
    The new rules set the limit at 3 engines per season, which is 21 races plus testing. So it's a balancing act, but you definitely need to reuse the engine for more than 1 race.
    - magicalhippo 7y ago
      And for those not in the know, a F1 race is ~305km, and they have do two days of practice plus qualifying in a race weekend using the engines they have (same engine for qualifying as for racing). There's some more detail in this[1] article, where they point out the Mercedes F1 engine did over 3000 miles (~4900km) during pre-season testing without issues (most in race-like conditions). That said, from my impression it is usually the turbo or the hybrid systems that break down, it's rare for the actual engine block to be the issue barring specific production issues. [1]: https://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/mercedes-f1-engine-true-modern-marvel https://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/mercedes-f1-engine-...

kragen 7y ago

The cylinders are especially large, but the displacement is still only 2ℓ. I think the unusually high horsepower for a 2ℓ engine is not just because of high compression but also because ⓐ they normally run it at especially high revs, like your motorcycles; ⓑ they run it on a two-stroke cycle at low speeds, up to 3krpm; and ⓒ they optimized it to run on alcohols, which as you know have lower energy density but are better at keeping the engine cool.

djrogers 7y ago
The engine does not run as a 2 stroke below 3k, the article says it theoretically could but they haven’t tested that. Also, 8,500 RPM isn’t ‘especially high revs’ these days... And finally, it still produces 500HP on pump gas - even that is outrageously more than any other 3cyl engine available.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  8500 is still pretty high for a turbo. most performance cars with turbos don't have a redline that high.
- kragen 7y ago
  Huh, I appreciate the corrections.

ska 7y ago

The service intervals aren't good on a lot of cars in this class. This is mitigated by a lot of them not being driven much.

Hamuko 7y ago
These kinds of cars go bad by just being parked. Even if you don't move it at all in a year, you probably still need to have it serviced.
- ska 7y ago
  I don't mean never driving, just rarely. So often in practice that means once a year even if your interval is 7 or even 5k. Nothing onerous. Besides, if you have one if these you have a bunch of other cars.

thetinguy 7y ago

Car oil can get additives that motorcycles cannot get because the engine and transmission share oil. Friction modifier can extend effective oil lifespan. 600 hp also requires e85.

4gotunameagain 7y ago
Not totally true, a honda CRF450 for example has separate crank case and transmission oil

gameswithgo 7y ago

the continuously variable valves is the key here, you can have the engine make good power at very high rpm, AND very low rpm, AND in between.

natmaka 7y ago
Exactly. VVT (variable valve timing) was promising for decades, starting back from the early 1900, then in the 1980's VTEC ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VTEC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VTEC ) was much more promising, and now this. The delay between each major step is approximately half the previous one, let's plan for a new one in ~20 years.