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If you excluded metallurgical coal from our exports, we'd still be the largest exporter of coal in the world.

tomhoward 7y ago
How is that a refutation of anything I wrote? The coal is still important for the economic wellbeing and personal welfare of the people in those countries, whether it's used for power generation or materials production.
- tomlock 7y ago
  Keeping global warming under control is important for the economic wellbeing and personal welfare of the people in those countries.
  - tomhoward 7y ago
    Notice how easy and noble-seeming it is to say that, compared to saying "I believe we should force more people in developing countries to stay in poverty for longer", even though they amount to the same thing? Please understand, I'm with you that climate change is important to mitigate; I lived through the bushfires and smoke haze this Australian summer, and I worry about the prospect of that being a more normal part of our future. I'm also expecting a child and have concerns for their future, as well the broader effects of climate change and environmental damage on humanity and nature everywhere. But I know that it will take more than scapegoating Australian politicians (funny how it's the conservative politicians that get attacked over this, even though their coal export policies aren't substantially different from Labor's) to fix the problem, when the whole reason for the demand for coal is that people in the developing world just want, quite reasonably, a standard of living approaching what we in the west take for granted. If these discussions involved sensible ideas about how developing countries could modernise their economies without fossil fuels, or acknowledged that large-scale carbon capture will have to be part of a comprehensive climate change solution, then I might be able to start taking them seriously. But I guess that kind of discussion doesn't deliver the quick hit of sanctimony that so many people seem to crave.
    - tomlock 7y ago
      We can alleviate poverty without coal.
      - tomhoward 7y ago
        I want to believe that too! And I'd be delighted to see evidence that it's possible and details of how it can happen. These one-line drive-by assertions without any details don't inspire confidence.
        tomlock 7y ago
        There's no evidence to suggest that we can't alleviate poverty without coal. We can alleviate poverty any number of ways. Your hyperbolic and emotional assertions about the need for Australia to continue selling coal don't inspire confidence.
        tomhoward 7y ago
        This gambit of replying with a flipped-around copy of the parent comment might feel clever but just indicates that you’re more interested in cheap point-scoring than earnestly confronting the entirety of the topic. Hacker News is not the place for crappy discourse like that. There is ample evidence that it can’t be done yet, given that governments and private companies addressing the biggest populations/markets in the world have had many years and every incentive to do it but so far have been unable to. Despite huge investments in renewables, nuclear and gas, they still need lots of coal for the foreseeable future. Here's a 2015 article from MIT Technology Review that explores the issue in depth: http://archive.is/SXXHl http://archive.is/SXXHl
        tomlock 7y ago
        Across the world, the percentage of fossil fuels used to generate power is dropping. This trend seems likely to continue, and Australians can accelerate it with our economic power. Coal is not required to alleviate poverty. Saying coal is required to alleviate poverty is a hyberbolic and emotional statement.

How is that a refutation of anything I wrote? The coal is still important for the economic wellbeing and personal welfare of the people in those countries, whether it's used for power generation or materials production.

tomlock 7y ago
Keeping global warming under control is important for the economic wellbeing and personal welfare of the people in those countries.
- tomhoward 7y ago
  Notice how easy and noble-seeming it is to say that, compared to saying "I believe we should force more people in developing countries to stay in poverty for longer", even though they amount to the same thing? Please understand, I'm with you that climate change is important to mitigate; I lived through the bushfires and smoke haze this Australian summer, and I worry about the prospect of that being a more normal part of our future. I'm also expecting a child and have concerns for their future, as well the broader effects of climate change and environmental damage on humanity and nature everywhere. But I know that it will take more than scapegoating Australian politicians (funny how it's the conservative politicians that get attacked over this, even though their coal export policies aren't substantially different from Labor's) to fix the problem, when the whole reason for the demand for coal is that people in the developing world just want, quite reasonably, a standard of living approaching what we in the west take for granted. If these discussions involved sensible ideas about how developing countries could modernise their economies without fossil fuels, or acknowledged that large-scale carbon capture will have to be part of a comprehensive climate change solution, then I might be able to start taking them seriously. But I guess that kind of discussion doesn't deliver the quick hit of sanctimony that so many people seem to crave.
  - tomlock 7y ago
    We can alleviate poverty without coal.
    - tomhoward 7y ago
      I want to believe that too! And I'd be delighted to see evidence that it's possible and details of how it can happen. These one-line drive-by assertions without any details don't inspire confidence.
      - tomlock 7y ago
        There's no evidence to suggest that we can't alleviate poverty without coal. We can alleviate poverty any number of ways. Your hyperbolic and emotional assertions about the need for Australia to continue selling coal don't inspire confidence.
        tomhoward 7y ago
        This gambit of replying with a flipped-around copy of the parent comment might feel clever but just indicates that you’re more interested in cheap point-scoring than earnestly confronting the entirety of the topic. Hacker News is not the place for crappy discourse like that. There is ample evidence that it can’t be done yet, given that governments and private companies addressing the biggest populations/markets in the world have had many years and every incentive to do it but so far have been unable to. Despite huge investments in renewables, nuclear and gas, they still need lots of coal for the foreseeable future. Here's a 2015 article from MIT Technology Review that explores the issue in depth: http://archive.is/SXXHl http://archive.is/SXXHl
        tomlock 7y ago
        Across the world, the percentage of fossil fuels used to generate power is dropping. This trend seems likely to continue, and Australians can accelerate it with our economic power. Coal is not required to alleviate poverty. Saying coal is required to alleviate poverty is a hyberbolic and emotional statement.