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troll: Internet slang for someone who disagrees with you, but whom you cannot come up with a cogent counter argument for. Yes, I mean "build your thing." Thi

by BitGeek 19y ago

troll: Internet slang for someone who disagrees with you, but whom you cannot come up with a cogent counter argument for. Yes, I mean "build your thing." This is NOT the "YC model". The YC model is "build a demo so you can get VC money". This is a very bad approach-- I mean, its a great approach if you're looking to get funded so that you can get a salary. ITs a terrible approach if you want to build a business that will grow fast and make you rich. The YC model has you building a demo that gets funded and instead of getting a salary from a large tech company like Google, Microsoft, Yahoo or Amazon, you get a salary from VCs. Believe it or not, as clueless as managerment at G, M, Y or A are, the VCs are even more clueless. You're still assuming that the purpose of your company is to demo your way into a job (eg: get "big" funding.) Sorry, I didn't mean network with your peers (if your peers are under 25). Hanging out with other YC founders is ok, but its not networking... you need to network with people who are older (assuming you're under 25)... people with other disciplines, preferably people with significant business experience. Nothing wrong with hanging out with other 25 year olds, but that's not the point. "Without the seriously smart hackers and designers-only rule, there's no value." I understand why you would say something like that. and I'm certainly not saying you should spend time with kids (also under 25) who spent the last four years snorting lines of coke off of hookers bellies (eg: Havard MBAs) but your coming off like Mark Zuckerberg... there are great bright valuable people in business. And you will NOT find them at a YC infest.... because these are people who are running successful companies. You need to be networking with your possible strategic partners, or the people who will be your customers or know your customers. ..... The reason the slashdot thread is so hostile is that the cult of Paul Graham is getting a lot of press lately and its sounding more and more like its gonna end in another jonestown. The more people associated with the program act like stepford hackers the more you're going to see "trolling" ...and the less time I'll spend here... whenever I've expressed something not %100 in line with the PG ideology, the responses have been vehemenant and identical... not counter arguments, but repetition of the ideology.

SwellJoe 19y ago
Howdy Bit, "Yes, I mean "build your thing." This is NOT the "YC model". The YC model is "build a demo so you can get VC money"." Where did you get that idea? Paul actively discourages YC companies to seek VC money, and is very nearly hostile to the groups who don't launch product by the end of the program. "You're still assuming that the purpose of your company is to demo your way into a job (eg: get "big" funding.)" Nope, you haven't bothered to look at what me and my company (a YC funded company) are doing. We've launched. We sell products to real customers for real money. We support them like a mofo. We add features and make it easier to use every week. Then we lather-rinse-repeat. We're building a serious business, and YC has been very encouraging about it. You've got the wrong end of the stick on everything YC is doing, as far as I can tell. "Sorry, I didn't mean network with your peers (if your peers are under 25)." Did you miss where I said I'm old. I'm 32, and this is my second company. I mean exactly what I said. "but your coming off like Mark Zuckerberg... there are great bright valuable people in business." Now you're just talking crazy. I've frequently made fun of Zuckerberg here on News.YC. Partly because I'm old. I've made no suggestion that you should only talk to young people. I am suggesting that hanging out with other smart people starting companies is the smartest thing you can do. I stand by everything I said about the YC events that were open to all comers. I'm not saying you can't gain anything from talking to business-oriented folks...I'm just saying I don't find any value in meeting with "business idiots" who want me to implement their dumbass ideas for them in exchange for 5% of their company. Business idiots are not the same as business folks who are useful to talk to. YC brings it on the latter, and skips the former entirely. "Nothing wrong with hanging out with other 25 year olds, but that's not the point." Again, I'm 32. My co-founder is 33. I'm cantankerous, and don't like kids. If there were any in the WFP, I managed to avoid noticing. The YC companies I've met are serious folks. "And you will NOT find them at a YC infest.... because these are people who are running successful companies." Oh, right. I met Joe Kraus...umm, at YC. Mark Fletcher...hmm, that was at YC, too. Evan Williams...argh, also at YC. Greg McAdoo...holy crap, YC. Ron Conway...I'll be damned, at YC. "The more people associated with the program act like stepford hackers the more you're going to see "trolling" ...and the less time I'll spend here... whenever I've expressed something not %100 in line with the PG ideology, the responses have been vehemenant and identical... not counter arguments, but repetition of the ideology." I don't know anything about that, and it doesn't matter to me whether you stick around. ;-) Where'd you get the the idea that Paul encourages any of the things you suggest? Certainly not in his essays...they're anti-VC, and always focus on building something people want. Early exits are a part of the strategy for a lot of YC companies, that's true, but I don't see where there's anything wrong with that. It's also clear to me that YC doesn't demand early exits (we are not an early exit company, and have never presented ourselves as one).
- BitGeek 19y ago
  Funny, I wasn't talking about you specifically, but you spent your response talking about you. Since you have made it about you, you put yourself up as an example, thus continuing to argue my points would be easily construed as bashing you personally. Making it personal in debate is never a good strategy... further, on multiple occassions you misconstrued or misrepresnted the points I was making... so I'm not going to respond to that either.
  - pg 19y ago
    I can't tell if you are a deliberate troll or just a very angry person, but nearly all your recent comments consist entirely of remarks about the person you're replying to, and have no information about the point being discussed. Please stop. This is not reddit.
    - BitGeek 19y ago
      Your comment consisted entiredly of remarks about my person, and had no information about the point being discussed. Thus, either you are a hypocrite, or I am being asked to stop because I have an opinion that (apparently) disagrees with yours. Further irony comes in the fact that you made this comment in response to me pointing out that the discussion was beind directed towards becoming personal by the person who responded to me, and stating that I wasn't going to go that direction. Finally, both calling me a troll or stating I'm a "very angry person" are personal attacks. Communities tend to follow the lead of their ostensible leader-- and you have just communicated to everyone that personal attacks are OK.
      - jsjenkins168 19y ago
        Calm down man.. This forum is focused on startup news, and pg is just trying to moderate and maintain a high SNR by keeping threads on topic and relatively clean.
        BitGeek 19y ago

by BitGeek 19y ago

SwellJoe 19y ago

Howdy Bit, "Yes, I mean "build your thing." This is NOT the "YC model". The YC model is "build a demo so you can get VC money"." Where did you get that idea? Paul actively discourages YC companies to seek VC money, and is very nearly hostile to the groups who don't launch product by the end of the program. "You're still assuming that the purpose of your company is to demo your way into a job (eg: get "big" funding.)" Nope, you haven't bothered to look at what me and my company (a YC funded company) are doing. We've launched. We sell products to real customers for real money. We support them like a mofo. We add features and make it easier to use every week. Then we lather-rinse-repeat. We're building a serious business, and YC has been very encouraging about it. You've got the wrong end of the stick on everything YC is doing, as far as I can tell. "Sorry, I didn't mean network with your peers (if your peers are under 25)." Did you miss where I said I'm old. I'm 32, and this is my second company. I mean exactly what I said. "but your coming off like Mark Zuckerberg... there are great bright valuable people in business." Now you're just talking crazy. I've frequently made fun of Zuckerberg here on News.YC. Partly because I'm old. I've made no suggestion that you should only talk to young people. I am suggesting that hanging out with other smart people starting companies is the smartest thing you can do. I stand by everything I said about the YC events that were open to all comers. I'm not saying you can't gain anything from talking to business-oriented folks...I'm just saying I don't find any value in meeting with "business idiots" who want me to implement their dumbass ideas for them in exchange for 5% of their company. Business idiots are not the same as business folks who are useful to talk to. YC brings it on the latter, and skips the former entirely. "Nothing wrong with hanging out with other 25 year olds, but that's not the point." Again, I'm 32. My co-founder is 33. I'm cantankerous, and don't like kids. If there were any in the WFP, I managed to avoid noticing. The YC companies I've met are serious folks. "And you will NOT find them at a YC infest.... because these are people who are running successful companies." Oh, right. I met Joe Kraus...umm, at YC. Mark Fletcher...hmm, that was at YC, too. Evan Williams...argh, also at YC. Greg McAdoo...holy crap, YC. Ron Conway...I'll be damned, at YC. "The more people associated with the program act like stepford hackers the more you're going to see "trolling" ...and the less time I'll spend here... whenever I've expressed something not %100 in line with the PG ideology, the responses have been vehemenant and identical... not counter arguments, but repetition of the ideology." I don't know anything about that, and it doesn't matter to me whether you stick around. ;-) Where'd you get the the idea that Paul encourages any of the things you suggest? Certainly not in his essays...they're anti-VC, and always focus on building something people want. Early exits are a part of the strategy for a lot of YC companies, that's true, but I don't see where there's anything wrong with that. It's also clear to me that YC doesn't demand early exits (we are not an early exit company, and have never presented ourselves as one).

BitGeek 19y ago
Funny, I wasn't talking about you specifically, but you spent your response talking about you. Since you have made it about you, you put yourself up as an example, thus continuing to argue my points would be easily construed as bashing you personally. Making it personal in debate is never a good strategy... further, on multiple occassions you misconstrued or misrepresnted the points I was making... so I'm not going to respond to that either.
- pg 19y ago
  I can't tell if you are a deliberate troll or just a very angry person, but nearly all your recent comments consist entirely of remarks about the person you're replying to, and have no information about the point being discussed. Please stop. This is not reddit.
  - BitGeek 19y ago
    Your comment consisted entiredly of remarks about my person, and had no information about the point being discussed. Thus, either you are a hypocrite, or I am being asked to stop because I have an opinion that (apparently) disagrees with yours. Further irony comes in the fact that you made this comment in response to me pointing out that the discussion was beind directed towards becoming personal by the person who responded to me, and stating that I wasn't going to go that direction. Finally, both calling me a troll or stating I'm a "very angry person" are personal attacks. Communities tend to follow the lead of their ostensible leader-- and you have just communicated to everyone that personal attacks are OK.
    - jsjenkins168 19y ago
      Calm down man.. This forum is focused on startup news, and pg is just trying to moderate and maintain a high SNR by keeping threads on topic and relatively clean.
      - BitGeek 19y ago