7 ms·

WTH ? That is a nice rant but one with some validity :-) First see my other responses in this thread so i don't have to repeat myself. >Real medicine does in

WTH ? That is a nice rant but one with some validity :-) First see my other responses in this thread so i don't have to repeat myself. >Real medicine does in fact study and treat the whole person. In Theory; Current practice has all but forgotten this. That is why many Physicians themselves are looking at Yoga, Meditation, TCM, Ayurveda etc. to supplement their treatment. >Medicine [which works] is just a rolling bug-patching process of the most heinously complicated, tightly-coupled, under-documented Big Ball Of Mud known to man Somewhat True but there are also multiple models/architectures within it all of which gives us a framework to hang everything else off of i.e. there is a method within the madness. The point is not to throw away centuries of empirical evidence on what has worked regardless of theoretical models used to explain them. Two different examples, a) The importance of quieting/calming the mind using Meditation independent of any religious connotations. b) The importance attached to Turmeric which has been validated today by identification of the Curcumin active ingredient.

hhas01 7y ago
“In Theory; Current practice has all but forgotten this. That is why many Physicians themselves are looking at Yoga, Meditation, TCM, Ayurveda etc. to supplement their treatment.” Eh, no. If many Physicians are looking at TCM, Ayurveda, etc†, it’s because there’s piles of Money and Ego in it. Shock: some <koff> physicians really do miss the Good Old Days of “Doctor-as-God” Paternalistic Medicine, and are only too delighted to bring it all back for their neurotic wealthy patients who miss it too. “The point is not to throw away centuries of empirical evidence on what has worked regardless of theoretical models used to explain them.’ Centuries of “empirical evidence”? Get. Tae. Fuck. And take your Appeals to Antiquity and Special Pleading bollocks, and stick them up your ass with all the other balls that Gwyneth Paltrow and Alex Jones and the CPC are flogging this week too. Because I wasn’t born yesterday. Unlike you. https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/?s=bait+and+switch&category_name=&submit=Search https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/?s=bait+and+switch&category... https://archive.org/details/thirtyyearsinmo00chrigoog https://archive.org/details/thirtyyearsinmo00chrigoog https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/woman-turmeric-injection-dies-alternative-therapy-san-diego-iv-curcumin-a7653531.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families... -- †I exclude Yoga and Meditation here because (ignoring any woo-woo gateway bullshit) those are essentially Exercise and Relaxation, which along with Diet are standard mainstream medical advice. Only real difference being that Medicine says “Eat right and exercise, or you will Dieeeee!‡”, whereas AltMed says “Eat right and exercise and stick our super-magical expensive coffee up your ass, and you will have an orgasm in your pants!” ‡Okay, it doesn’t really say “Die”, but that’s what neurotic high-maintenance muppets hear anyway; which is what makes them such suckers for the AltMed con. And I really wouldn’t care about that because that’s their funeral, except that they make others dead too.
- truth_be_told 7y ago
  Are you just an ass or are you just trying to get a rise out of people? It is hard to have a conversation when your tone is combative rather than rational. You are trying to employ the "Gish Gallop" and throw all sorts of irrelevant noise to muddy the waters. What do Gwyneth Paltrow, Alex Jones etc. have to do with Medicine?. If you think physicians are looking at Ayurveda/TCM/Yoga etc. only for the money/ego/fad then you really don't know what you are talking about. Don't waste my time with nonsense. You are also cherry-picking articles with sensational headlines eg. your last link about usage of Turmeric is an article which is very clearly sheer stupidity and nothing to do with the medicine itself. Here is something for your edification; Efficacy of Curcumin(Turmeric) - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5664031/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5664031/ Read the book "Herbal Medicine: Biomolecular and Clinical Aspects" for scientific research on a variety of traditional herbs. Centuries of "Empirical Data" is what is being put to test to identify efficacy. This is the proper scientific method and not the offhand dismissal that you seem to embrace. You are also very wrong about "Yoga and Meditation" being merely "Exercise and Relaxation". Read the following; * A Physiological Handbook for Teachers of Yogasana * Zen & the Brain That should hold you for a while.
  - hhas01 7y ago
    “Are you just an ass or are you just trying to get a rise out of people?” I don’t know; are you deliberately trying to insult my intelligence, or is it just something you stumble into? “What do Gwyneth Paltrow, Alex Jones etc. have to do with Medicine?” Don’t ask me: ask the TWO HUNDRED BILLION DOLLAR AltMed and Supplements global industry, of which they are a gleefully active and profitable part. “If you think physicians are looking at Ayurveda/TCM/Yoga etc” True. Physicians also look at Ayurveda to figure out why patients keep getting heavy metal poisoning. (Irony! The purity cult that screeches about miniscule quantities of aluminium adjuvants in vaccines fully approves the shovelfuls of real toxic heavy metals deliberated added to their own beloved products!) TCM and Yoga I mention below. .. “Here is something for your edification; [PM link]” Oh, this is hilarious. IANAS and even I can detect the low-quality stink emanating off that. Sample extract: “In a similar randomized placebo-controlled single-blind pilot trial, 20 male healthy, moderately active volunteers were randomized to receive either 1 g curcumin twice daily (200 mg curcumin twice a day ) or a placebo 48 h prior to and 24 h after a downhill running test. Subjects in the curcumin group reported significantly less pain in the right and left anterior thigh. Significantly fewer subjects in the curcumin group had MRI evidence of muscle injury in the posterior or medial compartment of both thighs. Increases in markers of muscle damage and inflammation tended to be lower in the curcumin group, but significant differences were only observed for interleukin-8 at 2 h after exercise. No differences in markers of oxidative stress and muscle histology were observed.” I leave readers to dissect out all the obvious jokes. Claiming and massively overstating purported health benefits of off-the-shelf products is SOP for your multi-billion dollar global Supplements/SCAM industry, who profit wonderfully selling off-the-shelf product at outrageous markup with sod all evidence for efficacy and even less regulation to ensure consumer safety, thanks to all the paid-off politicians and shysters on their books. (And then Alties claim Pharma is bad at this! Pharma only wishes it had the margins and leeway that SCAM has.) .. “Read the book” Why? Herbalism is at the cutting edge of 18th-century medicine. Big whoop. Meantime, real medicine already has Pharmacognosy, which is the rigorous scientific study of plants and other sources in nature to find pharmacologically interesting compounds. And something like half [IIRC] our modern pharmacopeia is descended from substances originally found there; refined, understood, improved on, and successfully mass-produced. Hell, Big Pharma’s even sifting through TCM’s vast heap of manure in search of the occasional nugget (they even found one too!). So despite Alties’ claims to the contrary Big Pharma is delighted to make huge heaps of money out out naturally-derived medicines too. While AltMed is delighted to sell all the useless leftovers Pharma already threw out. That’s what science does: pulls out the good bits; chucks the rest. .. “You are also very wrong about "Yoga and Meditation" being merely "Exercise and Relaxation".” I said “essentially”. As in: Exercise and Relaxation are the useful aspects, which real medicine already promotes. And the endless streams of ego-fluffing fabulist nonsense that True Believers and Salesmen hork on top is just the standard bait-n-switch into the overall scam. I thought it could go unsaid; clearly not. I lower my expectations accordingly. Oh, and one last thing: “Gish Gallop”? Really, what is this; Echolalia Day for Quacks? ’Cos you’ve not seen Gish Galloping till you’ve read it in the original Ayurvedic comment thread, one thousand-plus long: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/ayurvedic-practitioners-push-licensing-in-colorado/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/ayurvedic-practitioners-pus... I rest my case. Religions are like colons: most everyone’s got them, and yours is well full of it.

hhas01 7y ago

“In Theory; Current practice has all but forgotten this. That is why many Physicians themselves are looking at Yoga, Meditation, TCM, Ayurveda etc. to supplement their treatment.” Eh, no. If many Physicians are looking at TCM, Ayurveda, etc†, it’s because there’s piles of Money and Ego in it. Shock: some <koff> physicians really do miss the Good Old Days of “Doctor-as-God” Paternalistic Medicine, and are only too delighted to bring it all back for their neurotic wealthy patients who miss it too. “The point is not to throw away centuries of empirical evidence on what has worked regardless of theoretical models used to explain them.’ Centuries of “empirical evidence”? Get. Tae. Fuck. And take your Appeals to Antiquity and Special Pleading bollocks, and stick them up your ass with all the other balls that Gwyneth Paltrow and Alex Jones and the CPC are flogging this week too. Because I wasn’t born yesterday. Unlike you. https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/?s=bait+and+switch&category_name=&submit=Search https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/?s=bait+and+switch&category... https://archive.org/details/thirtyyearsinmo00chrigoog https://archive.org/details/thirtyyearsinmo00chrigoog https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/woman-turmeric-injection-dies-alternative-therapy-san-diego-iv-curcumin-a7653531.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families... -- †I exclude Yoga and Meditation here because (ignoring any woo-woo gateway bullshit) those are essentially Exercise and Relaxation, which along with Diet are standard mainstream medical advice. Only real difference being that Medicine says “Eat right and exercise, or you will Dieeeee!‡”, whereas AltMed says “Eat right and exercise and stick our super-magical expensive coffee up your ass, and you will have an orgasm in your pants!” ‡Okay, it doesn’t really say “Die”, but that’s what neurotic high-maintenance muppets hear anyway; which is what makes them such suckers for the AltMed con. And I really wouldn’t care about that because that’s their funeral, except that they make others dead too.

truth_be_told 7y ago
Are you just an ass or are you just trying to get a rise out of people? It is hard to have a conversation when your tone is combative rather than rational. You are trying to employ the "Gish Gallop" and throw all sorts of irrelevant noise to muddy the waters. What do Gwyneth Paltrow, Alex Jones etc. have to do with Medicine?. If you think physicians are looking at Ayurveda/TCM/Yoga etc. only for the money/ego/fad then you really don't know what you are talking about. Don't waste my time with nonsense. You are also cherry-picking articles with sensational headlines eg. your last link about usage of Turmeric is an article which is very clearly sheer stupidity and nothing to do with the medicine itself. Here is something for your edification; Efficacy of Curcumin(Turmeric) - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5664031/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5664031/ Read the book "Herbal Medicine: Biomolecular and Clinical Aspects" for scientific research on a variety of traditional herbs. Centuries of "Empirical Data" is what is being put to test to identify efficacy. This is the proper scientific method and not the offhand dismissal that you seem to embrace. You are also very wrong about "Yoga and Meditation" being merely "Exercise and Relaxation". Read the following; * A Physiological Handbook for Teachers of Yogasana * Zen & the Brain That should hold you for a while.
- hhas01 7y ago
  “Are you just an ass or are you just trying to get a rise out of people?” I don’t know; are you deliberately trying to insult my intelligence, or is it just something you stumble into? “What do Gwyneth Paltrow, Alex Jones etc. have to do with Medicine?” Don’t ask me: ask the TWO HUNDRED BILLION DOLLAR AltMed and Supplements global industry, of which they are a gleefully active and profitable part. “If you think physicians are looking at Ayurveda/TCM/Yoga etc” True. Physicians also look at Ayurveda to figure out why patients keep getting heavy metal poisoning. (Irony! The purity cult that screeches about miniscule quantities of aluminium adjuvants in vaccines fully approves the shovelfuls of real toxic heavy metals deliberated added to their own beloved products!) TCM and Yoga I mention below. .. “Here is something for your edification; [PM link]” Oh, this is hilarious. IANAS and even I can detect the low-quality stink emanating off that. Sample extract: “In a similar randomized placebo-controlled single-blind pilot trial, 20 male healthy, moderately active volunteers were randomized to receive either 1 g curcumin twice daily (200 mg curcumin twice a day ) or a placebo 48 h prior to and 24 h after a downhill running test. Subjects in the curcumin group reported significantly less pain in the right and left anterior thigh. Significantly fewer subjects in the curcumin group had MRI evidence of muscle injury in the posterior or medial compartment of both thighs. Increases in markers of muscle damage and inflammation tended to be lower in the curcumin group, but significant differences were only observed for interleukin-8 at 2 h after exercise. No differences in markers of oxidative stress and muscle histology were observed.” I leave readers to dissect out all the obvious jokes. Claiming and massively overstating purported health benefits of off-the-shelf products is SOP for your multi-billion dollar global Supplements/SCAM industry, who profit wonderfully selling off-the-shelf product at outrageous markup with sod all evidence for efficacy and even less regulation to ensure consumer safety, thanks to all the paid-off politicians and shysters on their books. (And then Alties claim Pharma is bad at this! Pharma only wishes it had the margins and leeway that SCAM has.) .. “Read the book” Why? Herbalism is at the cutting edge of 18th-century medicine. Big whoop. Meantime, real medicine already has Pharmacognosy, which is the rigorous scientific study of plants and other sources in nature to find pharmacologically interesting compounds. And something like half [IIRC] our modern pharmacopeia is descended from substances originally found there; refined, understood, improved on, and successfully mass-produced. Hell, Big Pharma’s even sifting through TCM’s vast heap of manure in search of the occasional nugget (they even found one too!). So despite Alties’ claims to the contrary Big Pharma is delighted to make huge heaps of money out out naturally-derived medicines too. While AltMed is delighted to sell all the useless leftovers Pharma already threw out. That’s what science does: pulls out the good bits; chucks the rest. .. “You are also very wrong about "Yoga and Meditation" being merely "Exercise and Relaxation".” I said “essentially”. As in: Exercise and Relaxation are the useful aspects, which real medicine already promotes. And the endless streams of ego-fluffing fabulist nonsense that True Believers and Salesmen hork on top is just the standard bait-n-switch into the overall scam. I thought it could go unsaid; clearly not. I lower my expectations accordingly. Oh, and one last thing: “Gish Gallop”? Really, what is this; Echolalia Day for Quacks? ’Cos you’ve not seen Gish Galloping till you’ve read it in the original Ayurvedic comment thread, one thousand-plus long: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/ayurvedic-practitioners-push-licensing-in-colorado/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/ayurvedic-practitioners-pus... I rest my case. Religions are like colons: most everyone’s got them, and yours is well full of it.