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I guess we should not even talk of the ruthless female on female psychological (and even physical!) harassment and violence that happens every day at many worki

I guess we should not even talk of the ruthless female on female psychological (and even physical!) harassment and violence that happens every day at many working environments. Nah, let us focus on a caricature of the dominant evil male and let us live in a world of perpetual victimization while spewing lots of ideological Indoctrination.

jacobolus 7y ago
Let’s be clear: (1) My impression (as a man myself) is that the vast majority of men in the tech industry are well meaning and respectful. It only takes a few – especially a few in positions of power – to make the whole culture feel unwelcoming. (2) I have not called anyone “evil” here. Something can be inconsiderate, unprofessional, make someone feel unwelcome, be directly harmful, or have pernicious systemic effects when perpetuated at scale, while still not being profoundly depraved or irredeemably malevolent. (3) Nobody is defending “ruthless female on female psychological (and even physical!) harassment and violence”.
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  (4) The problem isn't all men. It's all women have to deal with this shit.
  - fatbird 7y ago
    This comment shouldn't be downvoted: It gets at a low level asymetry in the problem. Only some men are actively problematic, but the combination of some problematic men and most non-problematic men tolerating or excusing their behaviour, puts all the women in the group in a position of dealing with the bad behaviour of "the problematic some". In the past, this meant what's identified in the article: they would avoid the harasser when possible, and the presence of harrassers like Asimov was a deterrent to participation. Also, as with Harvey Weinstein, Jian Ghomeshi and others, there was a whisper network around him to ensure that women were warned of his behaviour. Male scifi writers would happily spend an evening drinking with him at a convention, unaware of any risk; females kept their distance as much as professionally possible. Asimov knew, and was proud of, his status as "lech" (his word); I wonder if he was aware of the extent to which women tried to keep their distance from him. This is a common theme that recurs amongst various forms of oppression: the oppressor's group doesn't have to think about the problem (this is a big part of privilege, btw), while the oppressed are forced to be aware of it and at least prepared to deal with it constantly.
goto11 7y ago
Why would you not talk about that? Do you think one form of harassment somehow cancels out another form of harassment?

jacobolus 7y ago

Let’s be clear: (1) My impression (as a man myself) is that the vast majority of men in the tech industry are well meaning and respectful. It only takes a few – especially a few in positions of power – to make the whole culture feel unwelcoming. (2) I have not called anyone “evil” here. Something can be inconsiderate, unprofessional, make someone feel unwelcome, be directly harmful, or have pernicious systemic effects when perpetuated at scale, while still not being profoundly depraved or irredeemably malevolent. (3) Nobody is defending “ruthless female on female psychological (and even physical!) harassment and violence”.

Gibbon1 7y ago
(4) The problem isn't all men. It's all women have to deal with this shit.
- fatbird 7y ago
  This comment shouldn't be downvoted: It gets at a low level asymetry in the problem. Only some men are actively problematic, but the combination of some problematic men and most non-problematic men tolerating or excusing their behaviour, puts all the women in the group in a position of dealing with the bad behaviour of "the problematic some". In the past, this meant what's identified in the article: they would avoid the harasser when possible, and the presence of harrassers like Asimov was a deterrent to participation. Also, as with Harvey Weinstein, Jian Ghomeshi and others, there was a whisper network around him to ensure that women were warned of his behaviour. Male scifi writers would happily spend an evening drinking with him at a convention, unaware of any risk; females kept their distance as much as professionally possible. Asimov knew, and was proud of, his status as "lech" (his word); I wonder if he was aware of the extent to which women tried to keep their distance from him. This is a common theme that recurs amongst various forms of oppression: the oppressor's group doesn't have to think about the problem (this is a big part of privilege, btw), while the oppressed are forced to be aware of it and at least prepared to deal with it constantly.

goto11 7y ago

Why would you not talk about that? Do you think one form of harassment somehow cancels out another form of harassment?