8 ms·

If it's simply a wire, why not just use a map instead?

CydeWeys 7y ago
It needs to be an enclosed space, no matter how nebulous that closed space is. It sounds like you're trying to apply reason to religion, which is just never going to work.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  Yes, it took me a while to figure out why something that doesn’t follow reason survived and thrives. The competitive advantage that religion seems to provide is that it enables a mechanism to create a tribe and tribal rituals. People need an excuse to identify with one another, and it provides a nice way to discern “us” from “them”, enabling survival in tougher times.
  - freepor 7y ago
    Religion has to be independent of reason because it exists to promulgate the continued power of the people who run it. If it was based on reason, then those authorities' authority would be subject to debate. "Don't eat carbs they're bad for you"... "well the science says otherwise." So religion generally sticks to the unfalsifiable domains. In the time of the Ancient Greeks the origin of electricity was unfalsifiable so lightning came from Zeus, winter came from Persephone, etc. As science expanded the domain of reason, religion retreated to the core unfalsifiables of meaning of life, origin of the universe, existence of the afterlife, etc.
- ars 7y ago
  > It sounds like you're trying to apply reason to religion, which is just never going to work. I don't think you've ever met Judaism, every single thing in it is carefully reasoned over. The [unprovable] "axioms" if you will, might not be ones you would pick, but given those axioms everything else flows logically. Anyway, A wall encloses a space. A wall can have doorways obviously, and still enclose a space. What if you made the entire wall out of doorways? And that's what an eruv is, it's a series of doorways all right next to each other. There are certain rules on how you construct an eruv, otherwise it's not considered a doorway, but rather an opening.
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    > I don't think you've ever met Judaism Actually, I am Jewish, and I stand by my statement.
  - freepor 7y ago
    If that's "reasoning" then the Emperor's New Clothes are a three-piece suit made entirely out of buttonholes.
    - zentiggr 7y ago
      Bingo, now you're getting it.
    - ars 7y ago
      Pretty close but you aren't being nit picky enough. What makes a button hole? It's not just the space, but also the frame of stitching that surrounds it. So to use your analogy the suit would need to be made of many frames like that connected together. What else makes a button hole? Well they are usually in a nice straight line, so you suit would have to be the same way, you could not have a messy pattern of random placement. Keep going, what are the other essential elements of a button hole? Etc.. Take it to the full extreme, every element debated and defined and you would start to approach the way the thought process works. (An eruv has a ton of very strict restrictions on its construction, otherwise it doesn't count. Superficially it seems simple, just a string, but actually getting all the details right takes a lot of effort.)

It needs to be an enclosed space, no matter how nebulous that closed space is. It sounds like you're trying to apply reason to religion, which is just never going to work.

lotsofpulp 7y ago
Yes, it took me a while to figure out why something that doesn’t follow reason survived and thrives. The competitive advantage that religion seems to provide is that it enables a mechanism to create a tribe and tribal rituals. People need an excuse to identify with one another, and it provides a nice way to discern “us” from “them”, enabling survival in tougher times.
- freepor 7y ago
  Religion has to be independent of reason because it exists to promulgate the continued power of the people who run it. If it was based on reason, then those authorities' authority would be subject to debate. "Don't eat carbs they're bad for you"... "well the science says otherwise." So religion generally sticks to the unfalsifiable domains. In the time of the Ancient Greeks the origin of electricity was unfalsifiable so lightning came from Zeus, winter came from Persephone, etc. As science expanded the domain of reason, religion retreated to the core unfalsifiables of meaning of life, origin of the universe, existence of the afterlife, etc.
ars 7y ago
> It sounds like you're trying to apply reason to religion, which is just never going to work. I don't think you've ever met Judaism, every single thing in it is carefully reasoned over. The [unprovable] "axioms" if you will, might not be ones you would pick, but given those axioms everything else flows logically. Anyway, A wall encloses a space. A wall can have doorways obviously, and still enclose a space. What if you made the entire wall out of doorways? And that's what an eruv is, it's a series of doorways all right next to each other. There are certain rules on how you construct an eruv, otherwise it's not considered a doorway, but rather an opening.
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  > I don't think you've ever met Judaism Actually, I am Jewish, and I stand by my statement.
- freepor 7y ago
  If that's "reasoning" then the Emperor's New Clothes are a three-piece suit made entirely out of buttonholes.
  - zentiggr 7y ago
    Bingo, now you're getting it.
  - ars 7y ago
    Pretty close but you aren't being nit picky enough. What makes a button hole? It's not just the space, but also the frame of stitching that surrounds it. So to use your analogy the suit would need to be made of many frames like that connected together. What else makes a button hole? Well they are usually in a nice straight line, so you suit would have to be the same way, you could not have a messy pattern of random placement. Keep going, what are the other essential elements of a button hole? Etc.. Take it to the full extreme, every element debated and defined and you would start to approach the way the thought process works. (An eruv has a ton of very strict restrictions on its construction, otherwise it doesn't count. Superficially it seems simple, just a string, but actually getting all the details right takes a lot of effort.)