5 ms·

US atomic waste dump in Marshall Islands to be investigated

131 points by michaelmachine 7y ago

cobalt 7y ago
I was literally just watching this video on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=autMHvj3exA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=autMHvj3exA
- mehrdadn 7y ago
  Wow, just started watching it. I had no idea the Marshall Islands were settled thousands of years ago. Horrifying that they just detonated atomic bombs there and let people deal with the fallout...
  - cobalt 7y ago
    not the first, not the last
  - kylek 7y ago
    Don't worry, a few were compensated $550/year for their troubles[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bikini_Atoll#Nuclear_test_site https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bikini_Atoll#Nuclear_test_site
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - elfexec 7y ago
    Not just let them deal with the fallout. These islanders were intentionally used as human guinea pigs for radiation experimentation like other pacific island peoples - including the japanese civilians in hiroshima and nagasaki. Some of these islanders were intentionally relocated to nuclear testing sites in order to poison them with radiation and see the effects. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_4.1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_4.1 Search Nuclear Savage or "John the Savage" and there are declassified videos of these islanders being tested for radiation.
    - runlevel1 7y ago
      They did a lot of bad things, but having just read the article you linked, the evidence that exposure was intentional seems pretty weak.
      - elfexec 7y ago
        Then I guess it was a "happy accident" and the US got lucky that the Marshallese got exposed to radiation and we had the chance to conduct experiments on them without their informed consent. It would be like someone wanting to test the effects of electrocution and placing a live wire on the street. Someone "accidentally" steps on it and you can conduct your experiments on the victim. But it wasn't intentional since you didn't tell the victim to go step on the live wire. I guess it depends on what you mean by "intentional". Did they douse Marshallese directly? Did they blow up the nukes hoping some of the radiation landed on some unsuspecting Marshallese so that they can see the effects and conduct experiments? To me both are intentional, though some could argue only the former is intentional.
    - TheBobinator 7y ago
      Assuming it's true the US Did nuke fallout experiments on people 7 years after the end of a war, you need to keep in mind, that's what happens after a war. People who are put into combat situtuations look at human life as a numbers game; the experiment on them would have been justified along those lines. Kill some marginal population in horrific ways in a worthwile experiment to save more lives in the future; to a soldier this makes perfect sense. The problem with war is not the war itself, it's the weapons, including people, you leave laying around after. Once you get the bad lines of thinking started they perpetuate. You'd do very well for yourself to remember that while you're re-writing the history of WW2. It's one heck of a spin to call the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki "an experiment"; there was a war going on. The Americans knew exactly what was going to happen from the nuke; kill lots of Japs and hope they surrender and given the belligerance of both sides, I'd say they were probably right.
  - hanniabu 7y ago
    I'm sure they were think a few of the following - this is more economical - better them than us, let this small island deal with it - nobody will ever find out about this (read as not enough people will find out for it to matter) and even if they do then we don't really need to deal with much of a consequence because it's a small island, what are they early going to do about it - let's evacuate everyone off the island, throw some cheap concrete dome on it, and by the time it starts failing the world will have forgotten about this
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    If you think that's bad, check out the flag of Bikini Atoll (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Bikini_Atoll https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Bikini_Atoll). It's literally a big middle finger to the American government. It's America's flag but with some black stars hanging out amongst the stripes: "The three black stars in the upper right represent the three islands that were disfigured in March 1954 during the 15-megaton Bravo test by the United States. The two black stars in the lower right corner represent where the Bikinians live now, Kili Island, 425 miles to the south of Bikini Atoll, and Ejit Island of Majuro Atoll. These two stars are symbolically far away from Bikini's stars on the flag as the islands are in real life (both in distance and quality of life)." And in large black letters, the text "Everything is in the hands of God." Let's just say they didn't appreciate their home being irradiated.
    - dehrmann 7y ago
      Not as bad, but there's a nuclear waste dump off the coast of California: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farallon_Islands#Nuclear_waste_dump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farallon_Islands#Nuclear_waste...
annoyingnoob 7y ago
What I didn't get from any of the articles is how long the radiation is expected to be a problem. We are 60 years and its still very radioactive. How many more years before its not?
- satori99 7y ago
  A quote from the article in my earlier comment; Some of the debris buried beneath the dome includes plutonium-239, a fissile isotope used in nuclear warheads which is one of the most toxic substances on earth. It has a radioactive half-life of 24,100 years.
  - kenned3 7y ago
    By your logic, Bismuth-209 must be the most dangerous element on earth, with a half-life of 19 quintillion years. Elements with longer half lives tend to be more 'stable'...
- master-litty 7y ago
  Many generations beyond ours. Someone else posted this article which has more information: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-27/the-dome-runit-island-nuclear-test-leaking-due-to-climate-change/9161442 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-27/the-dome-runit-island... "Some of the debris buried beneath the dome includes plutonium-239, a fissile isotope used in nuclear warheads which is one of the most toxic substances on earth. It has a radioactive half-life of 24,100 years."
  - stickfigure 7y ago
    Generally speaking, the longer the half-life, the less dangerous (in terms of radioactivity) something is. Also, pl239 primarily emits alpha particles, which are stopped by clothing and don't penetrate skin. Maybe a real physicist can chime in, but I don't think there's much risk of standing around subcritical quantities of the stuff. The chemical toxicity is a different matter though.
satori99 7y ago
ABC Australia visited this island in 2017, and created a photo essay with some very clear images of its current state and its precarious location. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-27/the-dome-runit-island-nuclear-test-leaking-due-to-climate-change/9161442 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-27/the-dome-runit-island...
- remarkEon 7y ago
  >“I’m persuaded that the radiation outside the dome is as bad as the radiation inside the dome,” says Professor Gerrard. >“And therefore, it is a tragic irony that the US Government may be right, that if this material were to be released that the already bad state of the environment around there wouldn’t get that much worse.” Okay, so this begs the question: how bad is it already? I don't see anyone wearing radiation suits, walking on the dome. What radiation levels are apparent there now?
  - gwbas1c 7y ago
    A lot of people misunderstand danger from radioactivity. From what I understand, brief exposure poses little risk, but prolonged exposure is the problem. In this case, if the dome leaks, it means that radioactive material gets into the food chain, thus causing prolonged exposure to whoever eats it. (Besides, if the dome were so toxic that you couldn't get close to it, there wouldn't be vines growing on the dome and trees next to it.)
    - tyingq 7y ago
      Supposedly, it's PU238 underneath, more alpha than gamma danger. Concrete would block alpha radiation pretty well. It's also a heavy metal, so it would be poisonous without the radiation.
    - gambiting 7y ago
      >>(Besides, if the dome were so toxic that you couldn't get close to it, there wouldn't be vines growing on the dome and trees next to it.) I mean, I wouldn't be so sure about it. There was a whole document by IAA posted here about the recovery of radioactive material in some former Soviet republic, and the pictures clearly show the piece of metal in between some trees and greenery, even though it was giving off a lethal dose of radiation every few hours(the person who found it died because they spent few hours next to it, the other person had to spend over a year in hospital). My point is that even doses that are lethal to humans don't necessarily affect plant life as much.
metaphor 7y ago
Genuinely curious if any Marshallese prowl HN.
- peterburkimsher 7y ago
  Merry Christmas from Christmas Island, Kiribati! I'm not Marshallese, but the islands are nearby. Other countries have done terrible things to the atolls here as well. Everywhere untouched by WW2 got bombed anyway, especially by France and Britain. The UK detonated weapons above Kiritimati in the 1950s without evacuating it. Most locals have moved here since, and although some know about the testing, they have no idea about the risks they're exposed to. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23184816 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23184816
- Nexxius 7y ago
  Not Marshallese but, I spent 15 years on Kwaj testing ICBMs and tracking stuff in space.
discordance 7y ago
Decades after their nuke testing there, the US then used Kwajalein as target practice for their ICBMs: https://youtu.be/PDL_pIPScSI https://youtu.be/PDL_pIPScSI
- coribuci 7y ago
  America, fuck yeah
- Nexxius 7y ago
  For current American military & local news for Kwaj, go to https://www.smdc.army.mil/ https://www.smdc.army.mil/
ryannevius 7y ago
Location of "The Tomb": https://www.google.com/maps/place/The+Runit+Dome,+The+Tomb/@11.551311,162.3406612,3095m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x64369f738659b6c9:0x4657b78c3cb4f7fa!8m2!3d11.5525422!4d162.3472399 https://www.google.com/maps/place/The+Runit+Dome,+The+Tomb/@...
capableweb 7y ago
> “The United States Government has acknowledged that a major typhoon could break it apart and cause all of the radiation in it to disperse.” If this is true, why isn't the US government taking responsibility and fix this, RIGHT NOW? If you're just a typhoon away from spreading nuclear waste in the entire pacific, you better start working on a solid fix yesterday. This is beyond criminal neglect of your waste.
- jahewson 7y ago
  If you read the article to the end it is explained: the US gov does not believe that the dome contains any worse radiation than the surrounding area - which is already massively contaminated.
  - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
    I can't seem to find numbers to support 'massively'. This article says its near what New York's Central Park has (which is a normal amount): https://magazine.scienceconnected.org/2016/06/marshall-islands-radiation/ https://magazine.scienceconnected.org/2016/06/marshall-islan...

I was literally just watching this video on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=autMHvj3exA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=autMHvj3exA

mehrdadn 7y ago
Wow, just started watching it. I had no idea the Marshall Islands were settled thousands of years ago. Horrifying that they just detonated atomic bombs there and let people deal with the fallout...
- cobalt 7y ago
  not the first, not the last
- kylek 7y ago
  Don't worry, a few were compensated $550/year for their troubles[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bikini_Atoll#Nuclear_test_site https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bikini_Atoll#Nuclear_test_site
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- elfexec 7y ago
  Not just let them deal with the fallout. These islanders were intentionally used as human guinea pigs for radiation experimentation like other pacific island peoples - including the japanese civilians in hiroshima and nagasaki. Some of these islanders were intentionally relocated to nuclear testing sites in order to poison them with radiation and see the effects. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_4.1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_4.1 Search Nuclear Savage or "John the Savage" and there are declassified videos of these islanders being tested for radiation.
  - runlevel1 7y ago
    They did a lot of bad things, but having just read the article you linked, the evidence that exposure was intentional seems pretty weak.
    - elfexec 7y ago
      Then I guess it was a "happy accident" and the US got lucky that the Marshallese got exposed to radiation and we had the chance to conduct experiments on them without their informed consent. It would be like someone wanting to test the effects of electrocution and placing a live wire on the street. Someone "accidentally" steps on it and you can conduct your experiments on the victim. But it wasn't intentional since you didn't tell the victim to go step on the live wire. I guess it depends on what you mean by "intentional". Did they douse Marshallese directly? Did they blow up the nukes hoping some of the radiation landed on some unsuspecting Marshallese so that they can see the effects and conduct experiments? To me both are intentional, though some could argue only the former is intentional.
  - TheBobinator 7y ago
    Assuming it's true the US Did nuke fallout experiments on people 7 years after the end of a war, you need to keep in mind, that's what happens after a war. People who are put into combat situtuations look at human life as a numbers game; the experiment on them would have been justified along those lines. Kill some marginal population in horrific ways in a worthwile experiment to save more lives in the future; to a soldier this makes perfect sense. The problem with war is not the war itself, it's the weapons, including people, you leave laying around after. Once you get the bad lines of thinking started they perpetuate. You'd do very well for yourself to remember that while you're re-writing the history of WW2. It's one heck of a spin to call the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki "an experiment"; there was a war going on. The Americans knew exactly what was going to happen from the nuke; kill lots of Japs and hope they surrender and given the belligerance of both sides, I'd say they were probably right.
- hanniabu 7y ago
  I'm sure they were think a few of the following - this is more economical - better them than us, let this small island deal with it - nobody will ever find out about this (read as not enough people will find out for it to matter) and even if they do then we don't really need to deal with much of a consequence because it's a small island, what are they early going to do about it - let's evacuate everyone off the island, throw some cheap concrete dome on it, and by the time it starts failing the world will have forgotten about this
- arcticbull 7y ago
  If you think that's bad, check out the flag of Bikini Atoll (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Bikini_Atoll https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Bikini_Atoll). It's literally a big middle finger to the American government. It's America's flag but with some black stars hanging out amongst the stripes: "The three black stars in the upper right represent the three islands that were disfigured in March 1954 during the 15-megaton Bravo test by the United States. The two black stars in the lower right corner represent where the Bikinians live now, Kili Island, 425 miles to the south of Bikini Atoll, and Ejit Island of Majuro Atoll. These two stars are symbolically far away from Bikini's stars on the flag as the islands are in real life (both in distance and quality of life)." And in large black letters, the text "Everything is in the hands of God." Let's just say they didn't appreciate their home being irradiated.
  - dehrmann 7y ago
    Not as bad, but there's a nuclear waste dump off the coast of California: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farallon_Islands#Nuclear_waste_dump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farallon_Islands#Nuclear_waste...

annoyingnoob 7y ago

What I didn't get from any of the articles is how long the radiation is expected to be a problem. We are 60 years and its still very radioactive. How many more years before its not?

satori99 7y ago
A quote from the article in my earlier comment; Some of the debris buried beneath the dome includes plutonium-239, a fissile isotope used in nuclear warheads which is one of the most toxic substances on earth. It has a radioactive half-life of 24,100 years.
- kenned3 7y ago
  By your logic, Bismuth-209 must be the most dangerous element on earth, with a half-life of 19 quintillion years. Elements with longer half lives tend to be more 'stable'...
master-litty 7y ago
Many generations beyond ours. Someone else posted this article which has more information: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-27/the-dome-runit-island-nuclear-test-leaking-due-to-climate-change/9161442 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-27/the-dome-runit-island... "Some of the debris buried beneath the dome includes plutonium-239, a fissile isotope used in nuclear warheads which is one of the most toxic substances on earth. It has a radioactive half-life of 24,100 years."
- stickfigure 7y ago
  Generally speaking, the longer the half-life, the less dangerous (in terms of radioactivity) something is. Also, pl239 primarily emits alpha particles, which are stopped by clothing and don't penetrate skin. Maybe a real physicist can chime in, but I don't think there's much risk of standing around subcritical quantities of the stuff. The chemical toxicity is a different matter though.

satori99 7y ago

ABC Australia visited this island in 2017, and created a photo essay with some very clear images of its current state and its precarious location. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-27/the-dome-runit-island-nuclear-test-leaking-due-to-climate-change/9161442 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-27/the-dome-runit-island...

remarkEon 7y ago
>“I’m persuaded that the radiation outside the dome is as bad as the radiation inside the dome,” says Professor Gerrard. >“And therefore, it is a tragic irony that the US Government may be right, that if this material were to be released that the already bad state of the environment around there wouldn’t get that much worse.” Okay, so this begs the question: how bad is it already? I don't see anyone wearing radiation suits, walking on the dome. What radiation levels are apparent there now?
- gwbas1c 7y ago
  A lot of people misunderstand danger from radioactivity. From what I understand, brief exposure poses little risk, but prolonged exposure is the problem. In this case, if the dome leaks, it means that radioactive material gets into the food chain, thus causing prolonged exposure to whoever eats it. (Besides, if the dome were so toxic that you couldn't get close to it, there wouldn't be vines growing on the dome and trees next to it.)
  - tyingq 7y ago
    Supposedly, it's PU238 underneath, more alpha than gamma danger. Concrete would block alpha radiation pretty well. It's also a heavy metal, so it would be poisonous without the radiation.
  - gambiting 7y ago
    >>(Besides, if the dome were so toxic that you couldn't get close to it, there wouldn't be vines growing on the dome and trees next to it.) I mean, I wouldn't be so sure about it. There was a whole document by IAA posted here about the recovery of radioactive material in some former Soviet republic, and the pictures clearly show the piece of metal in between some trees and greenery, even though it was giving off a lethal dose of radiation every few hours(the person who found it died because they spent few hours next to it, the other person had to spend over a year in hospital). My point is that even doses that are lethal to humans don't necessarily affect plant life as much.

metaphor 7y ago

Genuinely curious if any Marshallese prowl HN.

peterburkimsher 7y ago
Merry Christmas from Christmas Island, Kiribati! I'm not Marshallese, but the islands are nearby. Other countries have done terrible things to the atolls here as well. Everywhere untouched by WW2 got bombed anyway, especially by France and Britain. The UK detonated weapons above Kiritimati in the 1950s without evacuating it. Most locals have moved here since, and although some know about the testing, they have no idea about the risks they're exposed to. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23184816 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23184816
Nexxius 7y ago
Not Marshallese but, I spent 15 years on Kwaj testing ICBMs and tracking stuff in space.

discordance 7y ago

Decades after their nuke testing there, the US then used Kwajalein as target practice for their ICBMs: https://youtu.be/PDL_pIPScSI https://youtu.be/PDL_pIPScSI

coribuci 7y ago
America, fuck yeah
Nexxius 7y ago
For current American military & local news for Kwaj, go to https://www.smdc.army.mil/ https://www.smdc.army.mil/

ryannevius 7y ago

Location of "The Tomb": https://www.google.com/maps/place/The+Runit+Dome,+The+Tomb/@11.551311,162.3406612,3095m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x64369f738659b6c9:0x4657b78c3cb4f7fa!8m2!3d11.5525422!4d162.3472399 https://www.google.com/maps/place/The+Runit+Dome,+The+Tomb/@...

capableweb 7y ago

> “The United States Government has acknowledged that a major typhoon could break it apart and cause all of the radiation in it to disperse.” If this is true, why isn't the US government taking responsibility and fix this, RIGHT NOW? If you're just a typhoon away from spreading nuclear waste in the entire pacific, you better start working on a solid fix yesterday. This is beyond criminal neglect of your waste.

jahewson 7y ago
If you read the article to the end it is explained: the US gov does not believe that the dome contains any worse radiation than the surrounding area - which is already massively contaminated.
- JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  I can't seem to find numbers to support 'massively'. This article says its near what New York's Central Park has (which is a normal amount): https://magazine.scienceconnected.org/2016/06/marshall-islands-radiation/ https://magazine.scienceconnected.org/2016/06/marshall-islan...