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Caffeine enhances activity of common antidepressants in forced swim test in mice
- frereubu 7y agoFull title gives a bit more context: "Caffeine enhances the antidepressant-like activity of common antidepressant drugs in the forced swim test in mice."
- temporaryvector 7y agoI was under the impression that this is a pretty known effect. I used to take anti-depressants along with CNS stimulants and this definitely was something that my psychiatrist and my other doctors mentioned to me and considered when choosing an appropriate dosage.
- copperx 7y agoCan you expound on that? Can you paraphrase the doctor's suggestions?
- heavyset_go 7y agoDAT inhibitors, DA releasers and agonists are effective antidepressants in that they reduce the symptoms of depression. Drugs like Zoloft are DAT inhibitors as well as acting as SSRIs, Wellbutrin is a NET and DAT inhibitor, and MAOIs inhibit the breakdown of serotonin, DA and norepinephrine. Newer antipsychotic medications that are indicated for use as adjunct therapy for depression also have binding action at certain DA receptor sites. The problem with dopaminergics is that they tend to be addictive, and build tolerance. Both Zoloft and Wellbutrin only inhibit a certain percentage of DAT in areas of the brain related to reward, so they aren't exactly abusable, while something like methylphenidate (which is a potent NET and DAT inhibitor) is.
- temporaryvector 7y agoThere isn't much to paraphrase, really. When my doctor was prescribing fluoxetine he offhandedly mentioned that he would start me off with a lower dose than he normally would for a person of my size and issues because I was already taking amphetamines, which meant that I wouldn't need as high a dose. The offhanded way he mentioned it gave me the impression that it was common knowledge and later another doctor also mentioned the same thing to me, but this one was not a psychiatrist but a cardiologist, farther cementing my suspicions. When I later asked my psychiatrist about this he said that since SSRIs and amphetamines are though to complement each other (even if the science on the matter isn't really decided) the recommendation they get is to adjust the dose of SSRIs down. I'm sure the actual reason is more complex than that, maybe involving fears of serotonin syndrome, but my takeaway from it was that the effect is well known. No idea about coffee in particular since I wasn't allowed to have any caffeine during that time.
- Domenic_S 7y agoFWIW ssris aren’t dosed by weight anyway, so it was just the amphetamine interaction they were counting on
- Vaslo 7y agoThey have spent a lot of money to research the fact that people are less productive when hungover. I guess even known things are targets for scarce research dollars.
- Mirioron 7y agoIt's also important to figure out the magnitude of the effect.
- diffeomorphism 7y agoHow much less? How does it depend on exactly how much they drank (linear, quadratic)? How much does it differ from person to person? ...? It is obvious that it has some impact, but not at all obvious how this works in detail.
- seibelj 7y agoMy perfect day is 8 hours of caffeine, an hour at the gym, 4 hours of alcohol, SSRI for a nightcap. YMMV
- mlacks 7y agoSelective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) boclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depression/in-depth/ssris/art-20044825
- dTal 7y agoI hope you're exaggerating - that kind of cocktail is going to kill your sleep quality and, in the long-term, quite possibly fry your brain. Thumbs up on the exercise though.
- armatav 7y agoI like how this is getting flagged out - but it's 100% true - this dude is going to fry himself with practically 0% REM sleep.
- ta999999171 7y agoAlcohol induces REM, so, you may not be as airtight as you think, there.
- dTal 7y agoSource? Every result on Google for 'alcohol rem sleep' says it suppresses it during the initial phase of sleep, while the alcohol is still in your system. There is a "rebound effect" later in the night, after the alcohol has been metabolised, but spending the second half of the night in a lighter phase of sleep is not good either. Basically, alcohol is uncontroversially terrible for sleep quality.
- armatav 7y agoAlcohol eliminates REM. It’s one of the most potent suppressors.
- dTal 7y agoThey don't appear to have run a control with caffeine alone. Caffeine is a well-established athletic performance-enhancing drug in its own right. Isn't this a serious flaw with the swim-test portion of this study?
- mattkrause 7y agoFigure 1 shows that 5,10,20,50 mg/kg caffeine has an effect on the forced-swim test, but not as strong as imipramine. Table 1 shows that the same doses of caffeine don’t make the mice more active in their cage, which might help address your concern.
- lightedman 7y ago"Table 1 shows that the same doses of caffeine don’t make the mice more active in their cage" As a former rat owner, and a former locked-up felon, if a rat (or human) is in a cage, it tends to know and act like it's in one. Caffeine isn't going to make you suddenly more energetic in your cage unless you've got some other underlying issues, so that part of the study is instantly suspect.
- mattkrause 7y agoMice will run for miles (literally!) if there’s a treadmill or wheel in their cage. I could certainly imagine there’s some sort of multiplicative effect, where a substances causes (say) a 1.2x increase in activity, but that’s also not really how caffeine hits me: too much and I’m nonspecifically jittery. Regardless, that could certainly explain the caffeine-only part, but it’s harder to square with the caffeine*anti-depressant effect.
- blowski 7y agoYou’re probably right, but that’s an anecdote, not scientific evidence.
- lightedman 7y agoI had thousands of other data points in the GP cell right there with me. Plenty of scientific basis for my conclusion, as I had a good 50 weeks to observe.
- dan-robertson 7y agoThe methodology here is typical for testing antidepressants with animals but many people find it somewhat horrifying: First the mice are made to be depressed by exposing them to constant sounds of birds screeching and other predators. Next some are given the intervention. The level of depression is then measured by putting the mice in a container of deep water from which there is no escape, and timing how long until the mouse gives up swimming. The mice are not left to drown but are fished out and killed in a presumably more-humane way (chronically depressed mice are not otherwise useful). A second ethical issue with studies with mice is that occasionally the unfortunate phd student tasked with dispatching the mice will not have been taught any way to do so and will have to try to come up with something on the spot. This can be quite traumatic for both parties.
- andbberger 7y ago> A second ethical issue with studies with mice is that often the unfortunate phd student tasked with dispatching the mice will not have been taught any way to do so and will have to try to come up with something on the spot. This can be quite traumatic for both parties. uhhhhhh are you sure about that?? This strikes me as a flagrant violation of policy. Animal studies are heavily regulated. In my experience, (and mind you I've only ever worked adjacent to animal labs, not directly in them) there is always a canister of CO2 and a euthanization chamber on standby in experiments where there is a risk of injuring the mice.
- dan-robertson 7y agoProbably should substitute “often” for “occasionally”. I’ve edited the comment. I suppose there are other factors too, eg the student not thinking to say they don’t know how to kill a mouse and their advisor not thinking to ask.
- samatman 7y agoWhile this is standard, it shouldn't be. Mammals sense CO2 buildup, not oxygen depletion. By smothering with CO2, the mice spend their last moments desperate to breathe and unable to. If they were to use nitrogen instead, the mice, having no way to know they've been deprived of oxygen, would just pass out and die.
- LatteLazy 7y agoWe have so little understanding of basically anything about the brain or mental health issues, it's the next big frontier in medicine.
- mahgnous 7y agoEnhances what? Feeling like a dumbed out zombie?
- newnewpdro 7y agoTIL "forced swim test", right up there with "rapid unscheduled disassembly".
- tgb29 7y agoStudies have shown that caffeine in moderation encourages learning.
- youeseh 7y agoI hope one day the mice will finally thank us for all the hard work we've done in improving their quality of life.
- friendlybus 7y agoThey're doing the tests on us.
- taneq 7y agoWell, if you look at the results... X cures cancer in mice Y increases lifespan in mice Z improves disease resistance in mice W reverses cognitive decline in mice The signs are all there.
- rkachowski 7y agowe could meet in the middle and actually change the human genome to be more like a mouse so we also get these benefits
- friendlybus 7y agoDon't forget your towel!
- mattkrause 7y agoI sometimes joke that the NIMH[0] is actually the National Institute for Mouse Health. [0] Yes, like the rats! It's a real institute (National Institute for Mental Health).
- taneq 7y agoMrs Frisby has no idea what you're talking about. :D Jenner, however, is an engineer like the rest of us.