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Police departments could do this as they have done with "bait cars" to catch those who engage in this behavior. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait_car https://e

Police departments could do this as they have done with "bait cars" to catch those who engage in this behavior. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait_car https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait_car

logfromblammo 7y ago
Bait cars are a police-state tactic. Just normal, Peelian-principled policing for me, thanks. Hunting and tracking, not fishing and trapping. Which is to say make better efforts to actually solve property crimes that occur naturally, rather than manufacturing crimes for the purpose of resolving them more easily.
- gjs278 7y ago
  anyone that steals a bait car would have stolen a real one given the chance
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    In a high enough crime area otherwise honest people are gonna engage in opportunistic crime because "if I don't someone will". That's also exactly the kind of place the police are gonna go fishing. I know of more than one junk car that's been dragged out of a particular swamp (because scrap prices were high) with no attempt made to contact the rightful owner. That would get you a felony charge in my state (I'm sure a good lawyer could beat it but still). I know that that's not the same as stealing a bait car but it's pretty close.
    - freehunter 7y ago
      >otherwise honest people are gonna engage in opportunistic crime because "if I don't someone will" I mean I don't live in a high crime area so maybe I'm missing something, but that doesn't sound like the behavior of an "otherwise honest person".
    - waste_monk 7y ago
      >In a high enough crime area otherwise honest people are gonna engage in opportunistic crime because "if I don't someone will". That is probably the weakest excuse for criminal behaviour I've ever heard. "Someone else was going to steal that car, so it might as well be me"? Bullshit. If someone's an "honest person" who only engages in crime when they think they can get away with it due to it being unlikely the police will follow up, they never had personal integrity or principles to begin with - they just hadn't been put in a situation where the cost/value proposition of commmiting a crime was worth it.
      - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
        Maybe stealing cars is a bit of the stretch but if you create more opportunity for crime there will be more crime. A better example is when the cops stick an under cover officer on the street corner as a hooker and of course she gets picked up because someone who would never pick up a hooker sees one that doesn't have a million hard miles on her and decides to give it a go. I know my local police used to leave rolls of copper wire on job sites to bait people to steal them. Of course nobody with a brain would leave an unsecured roll of copper wire around like that so the opportunity for the crime doesn't normally ever exist except when the police are baiting. Both those examples are baiting people who wouldn't otherwise consider the risk reward to be worth it to engage in crime.
        jcranmer 7y ago
        Your argument here is boiling down to someone saying "I'm normally a law-abiding citizen, but the crime was just so easy to commit, how could I resist?" To which the proper response is of course "Learn some self-restraint, that's how you could resist."
        dsfyu404ed 7y ago
        Well yes of course but people's morals get flexible when relatively (relative to them) large amounts of benefit to them (usually money) are involved. For example, I'm too well paid to shoot you over $10, $100, $1000, $10k, etc. but you keep tacking on zeros and eventually it gets tempting. It's like that but with smaller dollar amounts. People rationalize petty theft all the time by saying things like "well it was there and they weren't using it and I was going to put it (or the money made selling it) to good use". They know it's wrong but they just can't help themselves.
    - perl4ever 7y ago
      "I know of more than one junk car that's been dragged out of a particular swamp" Could you provide more information about how this...is a thing? Where it's reasonably plausible to find the owner? And a felony?
- UnFleshedOne 7y ago
  Bait cars are not manufacturing crimes. Those are natural and organic crimes. Unless undercover officers actively entice somebody to steal them or something? That would be entrapment it is already not allowed I think.
  - ballenf 7y ago
    You’re probably right, but we can probably all agree there is a line somewhere that we don’t want police crossing with regard to baiting criminal activity. I’d just rather us not have to debate where the line should be and be ever vigilant as police push the boundaries.
    - logfromblammo 7y ago
      In the traditional crime triangle of motive, method, and opportunity, baiting and trapping artificially supplies the opportunity, and in some cases also the method, such that crimes that would not normally occur take place in such a way that it is easier to prosecute them than the naturally occurring crimes. It replaces the pursuit and prosecution of people who have committed crimes in the community with jamming up all the usual suspects. It's lazy, and it takes resources away from victims waiting for satisfaction. "Sorry, we aren't going to look for the person who robbed you, but we arrested 30 folks who are criminally predisposed to do exactly the same crime against cars similar to yours, if they're parked nearby, with unlocked doors, and pawnable valuables easily detectable inside. One of them might even be the person who robbed you! We're not going to check, of course, but you can maybe pretend that we caught them, to make yourself feel better." Instead of setting a bait car, and watching just that one while it's out, watch over as many cars as possible to detect and prevent break-ins, all the time--as the community expects its police to do, to earn their pay. It may be effective in the short term, but it also undermines community trust in the justice system, which is critical for policing to be effective in the long term. If you round up and persecute all the usual suspects at regular intervals, their friends and family will stop helping you, and start shunning you whenever you come 'round to "help".
      - UnFleshedOne 7y ago
DrScump 7y ago
To show how old this concept is: the very first episode (1973) of the TV series "Police Story" featured a bait car being used to track Chuck Connor's character from theft of the bait car to a store robbery.

Police departments could do this as they have done with "bait cars" to catch those who engage in this behavior. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait_car https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait_car

logfromblammo 7y ago

Bait cars are a police-state tactic. Just normal, Peelian-principled policing for me, thanks. Hunting and tracking, not fishing and trapping. Which is to say make better efforts to actually solve property crimes that occur naturally, rather than manufacturing crimes for the purpose of resolving them more easily.

gjs278 7y ago
anyone that steals a bait car would have stolen a real one given the chance
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  In a high enough crime area otherwise honest people are gonna engage in opportunistic crime because "if I don't someone will". That's also exactly the kind of place the police are gonna go fishing. I know of more than one junk car that's been dragged out of a particular swamp (because scrap prices were high) with no attempt made to contact the rightful owner. That would get you a felony charge in my state (I'm sure a good lawyer could beat it but still). I know that that's not the same as stealing a bait car but it's pretty close.
  - freehunter 7y ago
    >otherwise honest people are gonna engage in opportunistic crime because "if I don't someone will" I mean I don't live in a high crime area so maybe I'm missing something, but that doesn't sound like the behavior of an "otherwise honest person".
  - waste_monk 7y ago
    >In a high enough crime area otherwise honest people are gonna engage in opportunistic crime because "if I don't someone will". That is probably the weakest excuse for criminal behaviour I've ever heard. "Someone else was going to steal that car, so it might as well be me"? Bullshit. If someone's an "honest person" who only engages in crime when they think they can get away with it due to it being unlikely the police will follow up, they never had personal integrity or principles to begin with - they just hadn't been put in a situation where the cost/value proposition of commmiting a crime was worth it.
    - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
      Maybe stealing cars is a bit of the stretch but if you create more opportunity for crime there will be more crime. A better example is when the cops stick an under cover officer on the street corner as a hooker and of course she gets picked up because someone who would never pick up a hooker sees one that doesn't have a million hard miles on her and decides to give it a go. I know my local police used to leave rolls of copper wire on job sites to bait people to steal them. Of course nobody with a brain would leave an unsecured roll of copper wire around like that so the opportunity for the crime doesn't normally ever exist except when the police are baiting. Both those examples are baiting people who wouldn't otherwise consider the risk reward to be worth it to engage in crime.
      - jcranmer 7y ago
        Your argument here is boiling down to someone saying "I'm normally a law-abiding citizen, but the crime was just so easy to commit, how could I resist?" To which the proper response is of course "Learn some self-restraint, that's how you could resist."
        dsfyu404ed 7y ago
        Well yes of course but people's morals get flexible when relatively (relative to them) large amounts of benefit to them (usually money) are involved. For example, I'm too well paid to shoot you over $10, $100, $1000, $10k, etc. but you keep tacking on zeros and eventually it gets tempting. It's like that but with smaller dollar amounts. People rationalize petty theft all the time by saying things like "well it was there and they weren't using it and I was going to put it (or the money made selling it) to good use". They know it's wrong but they just can't help themselves.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    "I know of more than one junk car that's been dragged out of a particular swamp" Could you provide more information about how this...is a thing? Where it's reasonably plausible to find the owner? And a felony?
UnFleshedOne 7y ago
Bait cars are not manufacturing crimes. Those are natural and organic crimes. Unless undercover officers actively entice somebody to steal them or something? That would be entrapment it is already not allowed I think.
- ballenf 7y ago
  You’re probably right, but we can probably all agree there is a line somewhere that we don’t want police crossing with regard to baiting criminal activity. I’d just rather us not have to debate where the line should be and be ever vigilant as police push the boundaries.
  - logfromblammo 7y ago
    In the traditional crime triangle of motive, method, and opportunity, baiting and trapping artificially supplies the opportunity, and in some cases also the method, such that crimes that would not normally occur take place in such a way that it is easier to prosecute them than the naturally occurring crimes. It replaces the pursuit and prosecution of people who have committed crimes in the community with jamming up all the usual suspects. It's lazy, and it takes resources away from victims waiting for satisfaction. "Sorry, we aren't going to look for the person who robbed you, but we arrested 30 folks who are criminally predisposed to do exactly the same crime against cars similar to yours, if they're parked nearby, with unlocked doors, and pawnable valuables easily detectable inside. One of them might even be the person who robbed you! We're not going to check, of course, but you can maybe pretend that we caught them, to make yourself feel better." Instead of setting a bait car, and watching just that one while it's out, watch over as many cars as possible to detect and prevent break-ins, all the time--as the community expects its police to do, to earn their pay. It may be effective in the short term, but it also undermines community trust in the justice system, which is critical for policing to be effective in the long term. If you round up and persecute all the usual suspects at regular intervals, their friends and family will stop helping you, and start shunning you whenever you come 'round to "help".
    - UnFleshedOne 7y ago

DrScump 7y ago

To show how old this concept is: the very first episode (1973) of the TV series "Police Story" featured a bait car being used to track Chuck Connor's character from theft of the bait car to a store robbery.