6 ms·

I think this is an important point. The lithium-ion battery market is _still_ smaller than the lead-acid battery market. This business is still ramping up.

Enginerrrd 7y ago
Wow, really? I've got dozens of Li-ion batteries in my house and only two lead-acid. One in my truck and one I use as a backup power supply for my radio equipment.
- retrovm 7y ago
  Well, estimates I can google up at the moment put the Pb-acid worldwide market at ~$42bn/year and the Li-ion market at ~$40bn/year. The latter is growing much faster but the former is also growing.
- jartelt 7y ago
  Lead acid batteries are used in pretty much everything ICE vehicle and are used in large quantities as uninterruptible power supplies (data centers use a ton). It's a huge industry.
  - slfnflctd 7y ago
    They're cheap, simple (don't require a complex BMS), predictable/safe, have a long-enough lifetime and are easy to recycle. The biggest drawback really is weight - and thereby shipping cost - but for long term stationary applications that doesn't matter. Lithium Ion attached to a supercapacitor with a sophisticated BMS is a much more complex setup-- yet even so, it will probably end up being the gold standard in the long run at this point, I would say even in most places lead-acid is still being used. I would not have predicted anything like that even five years ago, but barring some unlikely breakthrough it seems like where we're headed.
    - oceanplexian 7y ago
      Honestly it’s just market inefficiencies at this point. I build battery packs for drones and RC planes and the lead acid stuff is just garbage. They can’t perform to more than 60% of their rated capacity and then start voltage sagging. The energy density is pitiful. A small UPS under your desk with LiFePo4 cells would outperform the lead acid 3-4x for the same space and last longer for the same or less money.
      - 9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
        The majority of the are designed for massive amounts of current for short period of time?
  - ksec 7y ago
    Considering we ship 1.2B Smartphone, 300M Tablet, 150M Laptop, 100sM of IOT Gadget, along with Electric Cars and Buses. I am very much surprised Lead Acid Battery has a higher market revenue. Apart from ICE vehicle ( Which I dont buy every year ) I dont have any Lead Acid Battery around me.
- fortran77 7y ago
  UPS and battery backup for things like Alarms and Phone Systems use Gel Cells or AGM batteries which are in the sealed lead-acid family. You probably have more "lead acid" batteries than you think.
hanniabu 7y ago
Well I think part of that is attributed to lead acid being better at certain things then lithium, no?
- hwillis 7y ago
  Cheaper yes, better not really. IIRC li ion is better in every way except low temperature performance.
  - zamfi 7y ago
    > low temperature performance Doesn't that make li-ion unsuitable for, e.g., ICE vehicles that need to start at low temperatures? The batteries in EVs are definitely not as "forget about it" as the lead acid's in gas cars!
    - dzhiurgis 7y ago
      You still get about half range in -20C with cabin heating.
    - oceanplexian 7y ago
      Yeah I have an EV that gets 240 miles on a warm summers day but it drops down to like 160 on a day where it’s below freezing climbing a mountain. I’m OK with that. It’s still an absurd amount of range for a technology that would have been unthinkable a decade or two ago. I think once EVs start surpassing ICE cars in range it will be a non issue for most people.
      - daveFNbuck 7y ago
        A 33% drop in efficiency sounds reasonable for climbing a mountain vs driving on flat land. Do you know how much your range drops when you're driving in the cold but not climbing a mountain?
      - manmal 7y ago
        Some EVs just heat their battery, which limits the loss of range. The power for heating can be automatically drawn from the charging station in the early morning. Some EVs also start heating the cabin when you schedule it and they are plugged in (eg Ioniq). EVs can also start and go without any problems in conditions where gas cars give up (-20 celcius).

Enginerrrd 7y ago

Wow, really? I've got dozens of Li-ion batteries in my house and only two lead-acid. One in my truck and one I use as a backup power supply for my radio equipment.

retrovm 7y ago
Well, estimates I can google up at the moment put the Pb-acid worldwide market at ~$42bn/year and the Li-ion market at ~$40bn/year. The latter is growing much faster but the former is also growing.
jartelt 7y ago
Lead acid batteries are used in pretty much everything ICE vehicle and are used in large quantities as uninterruptible power supplies (data centers use a ton). It's a huge industry.
- slfnflctd 7y ago
  They're cheap, simple (don't require a complex BMS), predictable/safe, have a long-enough lifetime and are easy to recycle. The biggest drawback really is weight - and thereby shipping cost - but for long term stationary applications that doesn't matter. Lithium Ion attached to a supercapacitor with a sophisticated BMS is a much more complex setup-- yet even so, it will probably end up being the gold standard in the long run at this point, I would say even in most places lead-acid is still being used. I would not have predicted anything like that even five years ago, but barring some unlikely breakthrough it seems like where we're headed.
  - oceanplexian 7y ago
    Honestly it’s just market inefficiencies at this point. I build battery packs for drones and RC planes and the lead acid stuff is just garbage. They can’t perform to more than 60% of their rated capacity and then start voltage sagging. The energy density is pitiful. A small UPS under your desk with LiFePo4 cells would outperform the lead acid 3-4x for the same space and last longer for the same or less money.
    - 9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
      The majority of the are designed for massive amounts of current for short period of time?
- ksec 7y ago
  Considering we ship 1.2B Smartphone, 300M Tablet, 150M Laptop, 100sM of IOT Gadget, along with Electric Cars and Buses. I am very much surprised Lead Acid Battery has a higher market revenue. Apart from ICE vehicle ( Which I dont buy every year ) I dont have any Lead Acid Battery around me.
fortran77 7y ago
UPS and battery backup for things like Alarms and Phone Systems use Gel Cells or AGM batteries which are in the sealed lead-acid family. You probably have more "lead acid" batteries than you think.

hanniabu 7y ago

Well I think part of that is attributed to lead acid being better at certain things then lithium, no?

hwillis 7y ago
Cheaper yes, better not really. IIRC li ion is better in every way except low temperature performance.
- zamfi 7y ago
  > low temperature performance Doesn't that make li-ion unsuitable for, e.g., ICE vehicles that need to start at low temperatures? The batteries in EVs are definitely not as "forget about it" as the lead acid's in gas cars!
  - dzhiurgis 7y ago
    You still get about half range in -20C with cabin heating.
  - oceanplexian 7y ago
    Yeah I have an EV that gets 240 miles on a warm summers day but it drops down to like 160 on a day where it’s below freezing climbing a mountain. I’m OK with that. It’s still an absurd amount of range for a technology that would have been unthinkable a decade or two ago. I think once EVs start surpassing ICE cars in range it will be a non issue for most people.
    - daveFNbuck 7y ago
      A 33% drop in efficiency sounds reasonable for climbing a mountain vs driving on flat land. Do you know how much your range drops when you're driving in the cold but not climbing a mountain?
    - manmal 7y ago
      Some EVs just heat their battery, which limits the loss of range. The power for heating can be automatically drawn from the charging station in the early morning. Some EVs also start heating the cabin when you schedule it and they are plugged in (eg Ioniq). EVs can also start and go without any problems in conditions where gas cars give up (-20 celcius).