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> Why would Amazon behave less profitably? Simply because we perceive it to be more moral? Yes. Why is this so controversial? Why are we okay with profits bein

> Why would Amazon behave less profitably? Simply because we perceive it to be more moral? Yes. Why is this so controversial? Why are we okay with profits being more important than ethics?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
ChrisLomont 7y ago
>Why are we okay with profits being more important than ethics? Both are continuums, with profits being accurately quantified, and ethics being quite vague, subject to culture and people and history - it's no surprise not every actor comes to the same actions given the same situation.
rebuilder 7y ago
Corporations reliably do not care about morality more than they do about their bottom line. If you want to push them into behaving ethically, you need tools that work. Finger-wagging doesn't work. Hurting the bottom line might.
- yardie 7y ago
  Hurting the bottom line just means the workers get shafted (pay cuts or layoffs). Even with a fine shareholders still get their dividends. No, to really drive the point corporate officers need to go to jail.
- piva00 7y ago
  When I hear this argument the way my head translates it is "we need to create a market for morality" which sounds quite absurd...
  - rebuilder 7y ago
    I tend to look at it from the perspective of "what can we do" more than "what is right". While moral values certainly set the direction we should head in, having strong values achieves no good in the world without practical action.
rhizome 7y ago
>Why are we okay with profits being more important than ethics? "Why?" aside, there are a few mechanisms behind your question-begging. Capital itself is amoral. Money doesn't want anything, is not constrained or affected by ethics or morality, and can be used for kittens and torture in exactly the same ways and in the same form. Companies are created by people, so they can have principles under which the company is guided (by people), and people in turn have ethics (good or bad). Either through weakness or avarice, despite any personal feelings, all public benefit takes a back seat to profits. This is the morality of most capitalist companies: whatever it takes. It's a cop-out in favor of capital. "Welp, the company doesn't allow me to act according to my ethics because [something about the primacy of shareholders]," say those with power in the company. Any criticism of the morality of capitalist companies is ridiculed as reducing profits, often called "leaving money on the table" and seen nearly-universally in Western societies as a fireable offense for any businessperson hewing to the idea. It's a reason to reduce a person's control over any part of the capital flows that comprise day to day business and finance. It's a morality of bigotry in favor of capital, and part of "growing up" is learning how to be a "team player" and suppressing one's own preferences in order to perpetuate this bigotry. Comes now Amazon into the picture...
criley2 7y ago
"Why are we okay with profits being more important than ethics" I say this as a capitalist, but the answer is capitalism. Our greed-based system incentivizes hoarding and profit above all else, with the logic being, an unrepentant search for profit will, as a side effect, produce the best living conditions and wealthiest people. It is what it is, but it's a form of "scrub logic" or "loser logic" to run a business in a capitalist system which puts morals above profits. Generally, you will never be successful on a large scale, and all large actors will dominate you easily. There are very, very few exceptions.

> Why would Amazon behave less profitably? Simply because we perceive it to be more moral? Yes. Why is this so controversial? Why are we okay with profits being more important than ethics?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

ChrisLomont 7y ago

>Why are we okay with profits being more important than ethics? Both are continuums, with profits being accurately quantified, and ethics being quite vague, subject to culture and people and history - it's no surprise not every actor comes to the same actions given the same situation.

rebuilder 7y ago

Corporations reliably do not care about morality more than they do about their bottom line. If you want to push them into behaving ethically, you need tools that work. Finger-wagging doesn't work. Hurting the bottom line might.

yardie 7y ago
Hurting the bottom line just means the workers get shafted (pay cuts or layoffs). Even with a fine shareholders still get their dividends. No, to really drive the point corporate officers need to go to jail.
piva00 7y ago
When I hear this argument the way my head translates it is "we need to create a market for morality" which sounds quite absurd...
- rebuilder 7y ago
  I tend to look at it from the perspective of "what can we do" more than "what is right". While moral values certainly set the direction we should head in, having strong values achieves no good in the world without practical action.

rhizome 7y ago

>Why are we okay with profits being more important than ethics? "Why?" aside, there are a few mechanisms behind your question-begging. Capital itself is amoral. Money doesn't want anything, is not constrained or affected by ethics or morality, and can be used for kittens and torture in exactly the same ways and in the same form. Companies are created by people, so they can have principles under which the company is guided (by people), and people in turn have ethics (good or bad). Either through weakness or avarice, despite any personal feelings, all public benefit takes a back seat to profits. This is the morality of most capitalist companies: whatever it takes. It's a cop-out in favor of capital. "Welp, the company doesn't allow me to act according to my ethics because [something about the primacy of shareholders]," say those with power in the company. Any criticism of the morality of capitalist companies is ridiculed as reducing profits, often called "leaving money on the table" and seen nearly-universally in Western societies as a fireable offense for any businessperson hewing to the idea. It's a reason to reduce a person's control over any part of the capital flows that comprise day to day business and finance. It's a morality of bigotry in favor of capital, and part of "growing up" is learning how to be a "team player" and suppressing one's own preferences in order to perpetuate this bigotry. Comes now Amazon into the picture...

criley2 7y ago

"Why are we okay with profits being more important than ethics" I say this as a capitalist, but the answer is capitalism. Our greed-based system incentivizes hoarding and profit above all else, with the logic being, an unrepentant search for profit will, as a side effect, produce the best living conditions and wealthiest people. It is what it is, but it's a form of "scrub logic" or "loser logic" to run a business in a capitalist system which puts morals above profits. Generally, you will never be successful on a large scale, and all large actors will dominate you easily. There are very, very few exceptions.