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I think many European countries adjust the fines to ones wealth: For example Switzerland: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10960230 http://www.bbc.co.uk/

I think many European countries adjust the fines to ones wealth: For example Switzerland: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10960230 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10960230

jimmyjim 16y ago
And I want to point out that it makes very much sense to have fines adjusted to one's wealth. When speeding, you're endangering people's lives. There has to be some measure that will make you think twice about speeding the next time around -- if you know that the ticket fine will be a paltry amount to you (relative to your total wealth), that is no deterrent.
- dustinupdyke 16y ago
  I get what you are saying here, but I think the questions generated by this statement are numerous: "When speeding, you're endangering people's lives." Does this mean 56 mph is, and 55 is not dangerous somehow? By what science is this the case? What about weather conditions? The condition of your car? The type of your car? Your skill and ability to drive? Also, the randomness with which this law is enforced is troublesome as well. But perhaps if speeding tickets were $1000 dollars and up, we'd all think about it a bit more...
  - jarek 16y ago
    If you get a ticket for exceeding the speed limit by 1 mph, there are larger issues at hand than how much this ticket will cost you. Yes, speed limits are to an extent arbitrary, but practical alternative is a total judgment call. Do you always know the entirety of the condition of your car, and if not, should you be limited to 30 mph? Should drivers' licenses include a quantifiable evaluation of your skill and ability to drive and be tied into different speed limits, and how will that be tested? How will police officers know who is exceeding their license's conditions and therefore who to pull over?
    - ramanujan 16y ago
      > practical alternative is a total judgment call Right. So is the Autobahn actually all that accident prone? 55 was initially marketed as something that saved gas. After that was debunked, it was changed to "55 saves lives".
      - zbanks 16y ago
        It's also been shown that you can maximize the throughput of a highway if the speed limit is 45mph. Too high, and you need to increase the space between cars. Although 55mph != 45mph, it's pretty close. It also doesn't serve the individual, but if can't get the cars through fast enough, the traffic will build up eventually.
        daniel-cussen 16y ago
        You could change the speed limit dynamically to always maximize throughput.
        vl 16y ago
        Major Seattle highways have variable speed limits now, same constant traffic jams as before.
      - jarek 16y ago
        There is no state or province in North America with the kind of driving culture that exists in Germany.
        wyclif 16y ago
        What driving culture are you referring to? The wealthy everywhere have a preference for sports cars. That alone doesn't constitute "driving culture", but a lot of what you're talking about is just compression. The US has much more wide open space than Germany does.
        16y ago
  - wazoox 16y ago
    > By what science is this the case? Obviously, an old guy in a very old rusty driving at 5 mph over the limit is more dangerous than a young professional nascar pilot, running a brand new porsche at the same speed. However this is a bout equality versus equity. Equity means : you pay fines proportionally to what you earn; on the other hand you could then discuss the fact that different drivers and different vehicles may be treated differently (for instance, the speed limit is the speed at which your vehicle comes to full stop in 2.5 seconds). equality means everybody is treated the same way. The current system tends to equality, but is not equitable.
  - jules 16y ago
    You are arguing against tickets in general, not against fines proportional to wealth.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
- pmiller2 16y ago
  Fines aren't the deterrent. The deterrent is that points on your license lead to higher insurance rates and eventual loss of driving privileges.
  - jws 16y ago
    Except with wealth you can pay a local lawyer to plead it to a non-moving violation, a ludicrously inflated "court cost", and a "donation" to the local law enforcement retirement fund. (Kirksville Missouri, I'm looking at you.) The wealthy can opt for a "pay X now" instead of "Y over time where Y>X" option. Wealth buys you a discount.
    - cookiecaper 16y ago
      And all of that is likely to cost much more than just paying the fine and moving on. It sounds like the rich guy got taken to task for his attempts to weasel out of it in the case you're referring to. He eventually got what he wanted, I guess, which is no points, but it sounds like it cost a lot of money (unless his donation to the pension fund and his lawyer's hourly rate was $25).
      - jws 16y ago
        The points would have cost much more in future insurance policy premiums. The total cost of the fix is about $250 and you get to keep your "safe driver" rate or whatever the insurance company does for point-free/accident-free drivers.
        Unseelie 16y ago
        I find it interesting that the points have only been talked about in terms of the money they can cost you as a direct affect....The fact that they can make you lose your right to drive a car, and the myriad costs that carries, has been completely ignored.
- vlisivka 16y ago
  Increase every next fine by two. Drop older fines after year. If we will start from 1, then nobody will be able to get more than 32 fines per year, even Bill Gates. ;-)

I think many European countries adjust the fines to ones wealth: For example Switzerland: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10960230 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10960230

jimmyjim 16y ago

And I want to point out that it makes very much sense to have fines adjusted to one's wealth. When speeding, you're endangering people's lives. There has to be some measure that will make you think twice about speeding the next time around -- if you know that the ticket fine will be a paltry amount to you (relative to your total wealth), that is no deterrent.

dustinupdyke 16y ago
I get what you are saying here, but I think the questions generated by this statement are numerous: "When speeding, you're endangering people's lives." Does this mean 56 mph is, and 55 is not dangerous somehow? By what science is this the case? What about weather conditions? The condition of your car? The type of your car? Your skill and ability to drive? Also, the randomness with which this law is enforced is troublesome as well. But perhaps if speeding tickets were $1000 dollars and up, we'd all think about it a bit more...
- jarek 16y ago
  If you get a ticket for exceeding the speed limit by 1 mph, there are larger issues at hand than how much this ticket will cost you. Yes, speed limits are to an extent arbitrary, but practical alternative is a total judgment call. Do you always know the entirety of the condition of your car, and if not, should you be limited to 30 mph? Should drivers' licenses include a quantifiable evaluation of your skill and ability to drive and be tied into different speed limits, and how will that be tested? How will police officers know who is exceeding their license's conditions and therefore who to pull over?
  - ramanujan 16y ago
    > practical alternative is a total judgment call Right. So is the Autobahn actually all that accident prone? 55 was initially marketed as something that saved gas. After that was debunked, it was changed to "55 saves lives".
    - zbanks 16y ago
      It's also been shown that you can maximize the throughput of a highway if the speed limit is 45mph. Too high, and you need to increase the space between cars. Although 55mph != 45mph, it's pretty close. It also doesn't serve the individual, but if can't get the cars through fast enough, the traffic will build up eventually.
      - daniel-cussen 16y ago
        You could change the speed limit dynamically to always maximize throughput.
        vl 16y ago
        Major Seattle highways have variable speed limits now, same constant traffic jams as before.
    - jarek 16y ago
      There is no state or province in North America with the kind of driving culture that exists in Germany.
      - wyclif 16y ago
        What driving culture are you referring to? The wealthy everywhere have a preference for sports cars. That alone doesn't constitute "driving culture", but a lot of what you're talking about is just compression. The US has much more wide open space than Germany does.
        16y ago
- wazoox 16y ago
  > By what science is this the case? Obviously, an old guy in a very old rusty driving at 5 mph over the limit is more dangerous than a young professional nascar pilot, running a brand new porsche at the same speed. However this is a bout equality versus equity. Equity means : you pay fines proportionally to what you earn; on the other hand you could then discuss the fact that different drivers and different vehicles may be treated differently (for instance, the speed limit is the speed at which your vehicle comes to full stop in 2.5 seconds). equality means everybody is treated the same way. The current system tends to equality, but is not equitable.
- jules 16y ago
  You are arguing against tickets in general, not against fines proportional to wealth.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
pmiller2 16y ago
Fines aren't the deterrent. The deterrent is that points on your license lead to higher insurance rates and eventual loss of driving privileges.
- jws 16y ago
  Except with wealth you can pay a local lawyer to plead it to a non-moving violation, a ludicrously inflated "court cost", and a "donation" to the local law enforcement retirement fund. (Kirksville Missouri, I'm looking at you.) The wealthy can opt for a "pay X now" instead of "Y over time where Y>X" option. Wealth buys you a discount.
  - cookiecaper 16y ago
    And all of that is likely to cost much more than just paying the fine and moving on. It sounds like the rich guy got taken to task for his attempts to weasel out of it in the case you're referring to. He eventually got what he wanted, I guess, which is no points, but it sounds like it cost a lot of money (unless his donation to the pension fund and his lawyer's hourly rate was $25).
    - jws 16y ago
      The points would have cost much more in future insurance policy premiums. The total cost of the fix is about $250 and you get to keep your "safe driver" rate or whatever the insurance company does for point-free/accident-free drivers.
      - Unseelie 16y ago
        I find it interesting that the points have only been talked about in terms of the money they can cost you as a direct affect....The fact that they can make you lose your right to drive a car, and the myriad costs that carries, has been completely ignored.
vlisivka 16y ago
Increase every next fine by two. Drop older fines after year. If we will start from 1, then nobody will be able to get more than 32 fines per year, even Bill Gates. ;-)