12 ms·

I can tell you, from experience in this very thread, it feels about as shitty. :/ It's marginalization, fundamentally. A very small group of people (or a sing

by dimino 7y ago

I can tell you, from experience in this very thread, it feels about as shitty. :/ It's marginalization, fundamentally. A very small group of people (or a single person) decides to use their power to silence you, tell you how wrong you are, and tie your hands behind your proverbial back so you can't defend yourself. Dang supports it, and others join in. I can't tell you how many times I'll be browsing HN and see my score drop from one page load to the next by exactly as many points as I have comments in my history that can be downvoted. Or how many times a comment of mine gets flagged for reasons that have nothing to do with the HN guidelines. This forum is broken, and is in dire need of disruption.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jacobush 7y ago
Also, people are broken.
pjc50 7y ago
Do you have any insight into why this might be happening? I had a look at your post history and noticed you've posted relatively little this year since a large gap from 2016. I generally have a lot of respect for HN mods, it's never an easy job.
- dimino 7y ago
  I usually post from diminoten, but moved to this account to try and figure out why I was getting downvoted instantly nearly every time I commented, and why I was losing the same karma as votable posts that I had in the span of seconds sometimes. HN is not built to handle dissent. Privileges are based on votes, there are minimal to no vote protection tools in place, the guidelines are used as cudgels to beat people who disagree with the popular view, and the moderator (there's more or less only one, dang) prefers to smokescreen and gaslight anyone he doesn't like with generic comments that don't follow the very guidelines he's trying to enforce. Just look at his comment history; it's full of "This doesn't follow guidelines" without any elaboration, and when he does elaborate, it's an incredibly cynical and not-generous interpretation of the comment he's saying isn't acceptable, which is itself a violation of the HN guidelines, specifically the one about addressing the best form of an argument. Most of the problem is the fact that dang is the primary active moderator on HN. If others were to take over, and he were to be removed or retire, HN would become substantially better, possibly overnight. Dang needs to be removed for this site to grow and improve. People think HN is growing; it is not. The quality people who used to post here are more or less gone, and HN isn't attracting new quality posters to fill their shoes, precisely because dang moderates very poorly, which pushes away prospective high value posters. The reality is, it's high time for a replacement to HN.
  - de_watcher 7y ago
    First rule of the downvotes: "Never talk about the downvotes".
    - humanrebar 7y ago
      Seems in bounds for a thread about moderation.
    - rutenspitz 7y ago
      And second-last of the guidelines.
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    This is just an FYI that you can take under advisement if you so choose: Part of the reason you are getting so very much negative attention in this specific discussion is because your comment complaining about the very site you are posting on was the very first comment posted. This actively interferes with constructive discussion of the article posted as everyone replies to you and your personal complaints instead of engaging with the content of the article. (The term for it is thread shitting. As the author of the piece, I wasn't real happy to see it.) You also keep focusing on the negative and on points of disagreement and will not drop it. I'm sympathetic to your frustration, but there are pieces of this that only you can change. I'm aware you are likely to feel I'm "blaming the victim" rather than trying to empower you. My personal default is to wonder what I can do differently on my end to get better outcomes because I'm typically the piece of the equation I have the most control over, regardless of "who is to blame." I'm generally satisfied with that approach. Last, I will note that my advice to not automatically assume that this one person is behaving badly doesn't translate to "there is no point at which a mod should ever hold an individual accountable for their piece of the puzzle." That doesn't work. You don't get a free pass for your behavior for all eternity because you're -- for example -- a woman posting in an overwhelmingly male space. If I thought being a woman posting on HN meant I can do anything at all that I feel like doing and then blame negative reactions on sexism, I would have been banned ages ago -- and rightly so. Saying that it's not okay for the entire group to behave badly towards one individual and then blame their victim for their own choices absolutely doesn't mean the needs of one individual should trump the needs of the entire community. A moderator's job is to find ways to try to serve both needs at the same time, which is a balancing act. Please note that I waited to say anything to you until after the piece dropped off the front page in hopes of having fewer eyes on my comment, among other things. I thought about various possible tactics and concluded that replying late was probably the least worst option available to me.
- thrower123 7y ago
  This happens because one has somehow irked a person who is petty and vindictive and has nothing better to do than click through your profile and downvote every comment they can. I don't fully understand the mindset that would do this, but it certainly happens.
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    That's one possible explanation. It's not the only possibility though.
Forge36 7y ago
I read through a few of your posts on your other account. In this case am I right to say you feel you are the recipient of unfair abuse? More so then single individual downvotes can be expected? When this happens you feel your opinions aren't respected and valued? I feel shitty when that happens too. I've avoided commenting on controversial threads as a result. I think the problem is what you're saying is lost in your tone (it also appears to be happening in this post too).
- dimino 7y ago
  People don't like hearing dissent, or people who disagree with them. My tone is a reaction to the hostility I'm experiencing as a result of that friction. Most forums have some kind of backstop that prevents the vindictive from causing too much harm. This forum has a vindictive moderator. He needs to go.
  - Jarwain 7y ago
    It must be frustrating to feel like you're being singled out. More so when you feel hostility from individuals who disagree with you. It can feel very personal, when someone is attacking you and your ideas. Especially when you Know you have a point and it feels like you aren't being heard. I've spent a lot of time trying to deal with this conflict & trying to be heard and understood. Part of the trick is not taking things too personally, not Making things personal or directing them at an Individual, and instead continuously focusing on the topic at hand. If things devolve to personal attacks of Any sort, I disengage or try to re-focus. My goal is to be heard and understood, and that doesn't happen when the argument devolves to a personal level. It's hard not to react, but sometimes not reacting & taking the high road is the most productive way forward.

by dimino 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

jacobush 7y ago

Also, people are broken.

pjc50 7y ago

Do you have any insight into why this might be happening? I had a look at your post history and noticed you've posted relatively little this year since a large gap from 2016. I generally have a lot of respect for HN mods, it's never an easy job.

dimino 7y ago
I usually post from diminoten, but moved to this account to try and figure out why I was getting downvoted instantly nearly every time I commented, and why I was losing the same karma as votable posts that I had in the span of seconds sometimes. HN is not built to handle dissent. Privileges are based on votes, there are minimal to no vote protection tools in place, the guidelines are used as cudgels to beat people who disagree with the popular view, and the moderator (there's more or less only one, dang) prefers to smokescreen and gaslight anyone he doesn't like with generic comments that don't follow the very guidelines he's trying to enforce. Just look at his comment history; it's full of "This doesn't follow guidelines" without any elaboration, and when he does elaborate, it's an incredibly cynical and not-generous interpretation of the comment he's saying isn't acceptable, which is itself a violation of the HN guidelines, specifically the one about addressing the best form of an argument. Most of the problem is the fact that dang is the primary active moderator on HN. If others were to take over, and he were to be removed or retire, HN would become substantially better, possibly overnight. Dang needs to be removed for this site to grow and improve. People think HN is growing; it is not. The quality people who used to post here are more or less gone, and HN isn't attracting new quality posters to fill their shoes, precisely because dang moderates very poorly, which pushes away prospective high value posters. The reality is, it's high time for a replacement to HN.
- de_watcher 7y ago
  First rule of the downvotes: "Never talk about the downvotes".
  - humanrebar 7y ago
    Seems in bounds for a thread about moderation.
  - rutenspitz 7y ago
    And second-last of the guidelines.
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  This is just an FYI that you can take under advisement if you so choose: Part of the reason you are getting so very much negative attention in this specific discussion is because your comment complaining about the very site you are posting on was the very first comment posted. This actively interferes with constructive discussion of the article posted as everyone replies to you and your personal complaints instead of engaging with the content of the article. (The term for it is thread shitting. As the author of the piece, I wasn't real happy to see it.) You also keep focusing on the negative and on points of disagreement and will not drop it. I'm sympathetic to your frustration, but there are pieces of this that only you can change. I'm aware you are likely to feel I'm "blaming the victim" rather than trying to empower you. My personal default is to wonder what I can do differently on my end to get better outcomes because I'm typically the piece of the equation I have the most control over, regardless of "who is to blame." I'm generally satisfied with that approach. Last, I will note that my advice to not automatically assume that this one person is behaving badly doesn't translate to "there is no point at which a mod should ever hold an individual accountable for their piece of the puzzle." That doesn't work. You don't get a free pass for your behavior for all eternity because you're -- for example -- a woman posting in an overwhelmingly male space. If I thought being a woman posting on HN meant I can do anything at all that I feel like doing and then blame negative reactions on sexism, I would have been banned ages ago -- and rightly so. Saying that it's not okay for the entire group to behave badly towards one individual and then blame their victim for their own choices absolutely doesn't mean the needs of one individual should trump the needs of the entire community. A moderator's job is to find ways to try to serve both needs at the same time, which is a balancing act. Please note that I waited to say anything to you until after the piece dropped off the front page in hopes of having fewer eyes on my comment, among other things. I thought about various possible tactics and concluded that replying late was probably the least worst option available to me.
thrower123 7y ago
This happens because one has somehow irked a person who is petty and vindictive and has nothing better to do than click through your profile and downvote every comment they can. I don't fully understand the mindset that would do this, but it certainly happens.
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  That's one possible explanation. It's not the only possibility though.

Forge36 7y ago

I read through a few of your posts on your other account. In this case am I right to say you feel you are the recipient of unfair abuse? More so then single individual downvotes can be expected? When this happens you feel your opinions aren't respected and valued? I feel shitty when that happens too. I've avoided commenting on controversial threads as a result. I think the problem is what you're saying is lost in your tone (it also appears to be happening in this post too).

dimino 7y ago
People don't like hearing dissent, or people who disagree with them. My tone is a reaction to the hostility I'm experiencing as a result of that friction. Most forums have some kind of backstop that prevents the vindictive from causing too much harm. This forum has a vindictive moderator. He needs to go.
- Jarwain 7y ago
  It must be frustrating to feel like you're being singled out. More so when you feel hostility from individuals who disagree with you. It can feel very personal, when someone is attacking you and your ideas. Especially when you Know you have a point and it feels like you aren't being heard. I've spent a lot of time trying to deal with this conflict & trying to be heard and understood. Part of the trick is not taking things too personally, not Making things personal or directing them at an Individual, and instead continuously focusing on the topic at hand. If things devolve to personal attacks of Any sort, I disengage or try to re-focus. My goal is to be heard and understood, and that doesn't happen when the argument devolves to a personal level. It's hard not to react, but sometimes not reacting & taking the high road is the most productive way forward.