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I didn't mean to restate your point. I think you did not understand me at all. I was saying that the people you think want everything to be a meritocracy, do n

I didn't mean to restate your point. I think you did not understand me at all. I was saying that the people you think want everything to be a meritocracy, do not. The minorities that want equality do not want equality at all and the system is starting to give them preferential treatment.

metalliqaz 7y ago
oh I see now, you're one of those people I was talking about.
- notzuck 7y ago
  Of course just dismiss my actual experiences because it doesn't match your political bias. I had a hiring manager LITERALLY say he liked me but has to hire a woman to balance out the team. I was LITERALLY told to give minority candidates 5 extra points on CV scoring when I was a senior manager at Deloitte. We now have management programs and other trainings available exclusively as part of women's networks where the same training is not available to men. I know plenty of people that could do with presentation training, why did only the women get it?
  - jjeaff 7y ago
    You are assuming that all diversity pushes are purely for diversity sake. But that is simply not true. Uber has started pushing for diversity because a monoculture is what helped turn them into the toxic workplace that it was. Other companies are trying to hire diverse staff because they are building products for diverse customers and they know a diverse staff will create a better product. If you hire all young, white, males, you end up with products like facial recognition that only recognizes white people and AI with built in bias among many other things. In these cases, rejecting you for a diversity hire is no different than telling you, "well, you are really talented at what you do, but your expertise is Java and what we need is an expert in Go."
    - notzuck 7y ago
      Can you map any of what you said to the role I applied for? I can't. Can you map anything you just said to the roles I was interviewing when I was hiring at Deloitte? I can't. You really think that many places aren't doing diversity for the sake of diversity? You're so naive. Deloitte have no reason to give women extra points on their CV / resume scoring. Oracle have no reason to turn down males sales execs in an attempt to balance out the male heavy teams. All male teams are not always toxic and hiring women doesn't guarantee that you'll end up with a less toxic team. I've worked with toxic men and toxic women. I hope you get rejected over your gender so you know how it feels.
      - jjeaff 7y ago
        I have been rejected for diversity reasons. But I'm not ignorant and selfish enough to assume that any and everything that hurts me personally must inherently be wrong. If you don't see why any company would benefit having diversity then I don't know what to tell you. That's like saying you don't see any benefit to a company's employees having diverse ideas and backgrounds.
        notzuck 7y ago
        I can see value in diversity, I championed diversity from my senior position at Deloitte. It is illegal to reject someone over something they can't control like gender especially when there is no legally valid reason for doing so. I would be annoyed if my daughter couldn't attend her University of choice because she is female just as much as I would if that happened to my Son. Our laws, morals and ethics have said, for a long time, that we should not discriminate based on gender, race or a multitude of other factors UNLESS there is a clearly defined and accepted reason for doing so for a specific role e.g. a female care worker to look after female patients. Lofty research around diversity of thought amongst gender balanced teams is not a legal reason for gender discrimination. If you're telling me that I cannot get a job purely because of my gender, you need a very very good reason why and a vague notion that any given team having more women will make everything better is nowhere near a good reason. I say this as an author of many papers showing the benefits of diverse teams. Papers that have been published in the trade press, academic journals and Deloitte 'thought leadership' publications. Your current understanding of diversity if very immature and harmful to the overall cause.

metalliqaz 7y ago

oh I see now, you're one of those people I was talking about.

notzuck 7y ago
Of course just dismiss my actual experiences because it doesn't match your political bias. I had a hiring manager LITERALLY say he liked me but has to hire a woman to balance out the team. I was LITERALLY told to give minority candidates 5 extra points on CV scoring when I was a senior manager at Deloitte. We now have management programs and other trainings available exclusively as part of women's networks where the same training is not available to men. I know plenty of people that could do with presentation training, why did only the women get it?
- jjeaff 7y ago
  You are assuming that all diversity pushes are purely for diversity sake. But that is simply not true. Uber has started pushing for diversity because a monoculture is what helped turn them into the toxic workplace that it was. Other companies are trying to hire diverse staff because they are building products for diverse customers and they know a diverse staff will create a better product. If you hire all young, white, males, you end up with products like facial recognition that only recognizes white people and AI with built in bias among many other things. In these cases, rejecting you for a diversity hire is no different than telling you, "well, you are really talented at what you do, but your expertise is Java and what we need is an expert in Go."
  - notzuck 7y ago
    Can you map any of what you said to the role I applied for? I can't. Can you map anything you just said to the roles I was interviewing when I was hiring at Deloitte? I can't. You really think that many places aren't doing diversity for the sake of diversity? You're so naive. Deloitte have no reason to give women extra points on their CV / resume scoring. Oracle have no reason to turn down males sales execs in an attempt to balance out the male heavy teams. All male teams are not always toxic and hiring women doesn't guarantee that you'll end up with a less toxic team. I've worked with toxic men and toxic women. I hope you get rejected over your gender so you know how it feels.
    - jjeaff 7y ago
      I have been rejected for diversity reasons. But I'm not ignorant and selfish enough to assume that any and everything that hurts me personally must inherently be wrong. If you don't see why any company would benefit having diversity then I don't know what to tell you. That's like saying you don't see any benefit to a company's employees having diverse ideas and backgrounds.
      - notzuck 7y ago
        I can see value in diversity, I championed diversity from my senior position at Deloitte. It is illegal to reject someone over something they can't control like gender especially when there is no legally valid reason for doing so. I would be annoyed if my daughter couldn't attend her University of choice because she is female just as much as I would if that happened to my Son. Our laws, morals and ethics have said, for a long time, that we should not discriminate based on gender, race or a multitude of other factors UNLESS there is a clearly defined and accepted reason for doing so for a specific role e.g. a female care worker to look after female patients. Lofty research around diversity of thought amongst gender balanced teams is not a legal reason for gender discrimination. If you're telling me that I cannot get a job purely because of my gender, you need a very very good reason why and a vague notion that any given team having more women will make everything better is nowhere near a good reason. I say this as an author of many papers showing the benefits of diverse teams. Papers that have been published in the trade press, academic journals and Deloitte 'thought leadership' publications. Your current understanding of diversity if very immature and harmful to the overall cause.