5 ms·

Call me the evil polluter, but I'm sorry I still find cars one of the best inventions humankind has come up with, and it could be a horse and a carriage for all

by aclsid 7y ago

Call me the evil polluter, but I'm sorry I still find cars one of the best inventions humankind has come up with, and it could be a horse and a carriage for all I care. But the freedom of having your own horse/car won't be replaced with stuff like this imho. If somebody comes up with electric cars that are small and standardized, small enough to carry you and your groceries, and not to be a victim of the elements (rain, heat, cold), then you can call me a believer.

WhompingWindows 7y ago
"Stuff like this" you mean walking/biking/public transport? It's already replaced cars in many places, including what's in the OP. I don't know if the personal automobile is one of the best inventions...it's built on the back of climate change and has led to less efficient infrastructure and less efficient society in the name of slight convenience. If carbon was priced properly based on its negative externalities, cars would be a LOT less attractive.
- tremon 7y ago
  I think the personal automobile still is one of the best inventions. The failure is not the vehicle itself, but the fact that entire cities have been constructed to accomodate them, to the detriment of everything else (as discussed in this thread: pedestrians, cyclists, small shops, communities, health all suffer from car-centric city design).
tjr225 7y ago
Nobody is questioning the convenience of cars. However, if you have ever had a no commute life- whether it be full remote, or a walkable commute- I think you may just happen to flip your tune. It is a simple delight. If we could build a world around this I think we could be doing something really meaningful and beneficial for society as a whole. Think grocery stores, doctors, etc all within walking or public transport distance. Imagine if you only needed your car to go visit friends that were far away or to go visit some place that's hard to get to. I have experienced the full spectrum. I've had a super commute from Olympia to Seattle. I've biked to the train station and ridden with my buddies down to Kent. I've walked 8 minutes to the library where I was an intern. I currently work from home. Cars are a burden on society- one I accept because I occasionally like to take the dogs to the beach or go hiking, but believe me, life is better the less car you can involve in it. I also happen to enjoy having a cheap old truck as a hobbiest activity. Still, I only drive it on occasion and I love every minute of it. But it is amazing to not depend on it.
- cortesoft 7y ago
  I lived a no car life, where I walked to work, the store, everywhere. I have also lived the drive a long distance life. My favorite is my current life... easy parking right in my driveway, short drives to stores with ample parking, short drive commute to work with ample parking. Walking is great, but lugging groceries sucks, even if the store is close. It sucked when I lived in an apartment where I parked in a parking lot and had to walk my groceries from the car up to the elevator to my apartment. A car is just easier, assuming light traffic, short drives, and good parking.
  - bobbydroptables 7y ago
    I don't think anyone is abolishing the suburbs just yet and I don't think most urbanites care that much about how you live your life out of the city. It's most that for those who choose a fully urban life, when do we start to deemphasize these vestiges of auto centric culture that sort of took over before cities understood what they were doing.
  - graeme 7y ago
    > Walking is great, but lugging groceries sucks, even if the store is close. Are we talking 3-5 min walk close? Just want to establish whether you actually lived in the kind of place people are talking about here. A 5 min walk with groceries shouldn't be burdensome. A 25 min walk would be.
    - lultimouomo 7y ago
      He's complaining about having to carry groceries from the car to the elevator, so I don't think he would consider a 5 min walk with groceries "fine".
      - graeme 7y ago
        True. This seems related to the general decline in fitness of the American population, assuming OP is American. Grip strength has declined massively since the 1980s. A short walk with bags shouldn't be hard or even unpleasant for the typical adult.
otikik 7y ago
When everyone uses "their freedom"[1] every workday at the same time, suddenly no one (including those how choose the bus) has "their freedom". I have an asthmatic child and I live in a big city, so yeah, on my list, somewhat curtailing your right to pollute around goes after my right to not have to bring him to ER with a crisis at 3 in the morning. That is a problem electric cars won't fix, by the way, they'll just move it around. I can do most of my groceries by going downstairs and walking. I can get to the city center in 40 minutes using public transportation. During that time I can look up stuff on my phone without endangering anyone's life, I don't have to worry about finding a parking spot, and I don't have to worry about a bunch of expenses that a car brings. I think your car (and car-centric urban development) is making you less free than me. [1] Related: Molecules of Freedom https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/may/29/energy-department-molecules-freedom-fossil-fuel-rebranding https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/may/29/energy-depa...
- johnday 7y ago
  > That is a problem electric cars won't fix, by the way, they'll just move it around. "Moving it around" here generally means moving it to electricity generation sites - ie places where people don't live. That's a huge benefit already. And moreover it's much easier to de-pollute electricity generation infrastructure than to de-pollute fossil fuel cars. I'm no kind of electric car fan. I'd much rather see cars die off wholesale, leaving only well-invested public transport and personal transport for the less able. I don't own a car of any sort and plan never to live more than s 15 minute walk from my place of work. But electric cars are still a huge positive step for urban environments.
  - simonsarris 7y ago
    Just fyi the majority of particulate matter emitted by cars comes from brakes and tires, not gasoline (diesel changes the equation somewhat) So electric cars still have a lot of particulate emissions, thought less so in environments where they have lots of opportunity for regenerative braking.
    - 7y ago
YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
Actually, replacing some cars with horses (though probably not horse-drawn cars) would solve some of the problems caused by cars, especially the damage they do to the environment. Inside city bounds, small trucks could be replaced by horse-drawn carriages; they'd be clean (clean_er- horses still er, produce waste) and large trucks should never be allowed in the same areas as pedestrians and bicyclists anyway. I'm not saying that the current pace of life in very big cities could be maintained in this way, but just the reduction in emissions would probably make up for any short-term financial loss.

by aclsid 7y ago

WhompingWindows 7y ago

"Stuff like this" you mean walking/biking/public transport? It's already replaced cars in many places, including what's in the OP. I don't know if the personal automobile is one of the best inventions...it's built on the back of climate change and has led to less efficient infrastructure and less efficient society in the name of slight convenience. If carbon was priced properly based on its negative externalities, cars would be a LOT less attractive.

tremon 7y ago
I think the personal automobile still is one of the best inventions. The failure is not the vehicle itself, but the fact that entire cities have been constructed to accomodate them, to the detriment of everything else (as discussed in this thread: pedestrians, cyclists, small shops, communities, health all suffer from car-centric city design).

tjr225 7y ago

Nobody is questioning the convenience of cars. However, if you have ever had a no commute life- whether it be full remote, or a walkable commute- I think you may just happen to flip your tune. It is a simple delight. If we could build a world around this I think we could be doing something really meaningful and beneficial for society as a whole. Think grocery stores, doctors, etc all within walking or public transport distance. Imagine if you only needed your car to go visit friends that were far away or to go visit some place that's hard to get to. I have experienced the full spectrum. I've had a super commute from Olympia to Seattle. I've biked to the train station and ridden with my buddies down to Kent. I've walked 8 minutes to the library where I was an intern. I currently work from home. Cars are a burden on society- one I accept because I occasionally like to take the dogs to the beach or go hiking, but believe me, life is better the less car you can involve in it. I also happen to enjoy having a cheap old truck as a hobbiest activity. Still, I only drive it on occasion and I love every minute of it. But it is amazing to not depend on it.

cortesoft 7y ago
I lived a no car life, where I walked to work, the store, everywhere. I have also lived the drive a long distance life. My favorite is my current life... easy parking right in my driveway, short drives to stores with ample parking, short drive commute to work with ample parking. Walking is great, but lugging groceries sucks, even if the store is close. It sucked when I lived in an apartment where I parked in a parking lot and had to walk my groceries from the car up to the elevator to my apartment. A car is just easier, assuming light traffic, short drives, and good parking.
- bobbydroptables 7y ago
  I don't think anyone is abolishing the suburbs just yet and I don't think most urbanites care that much about how you live your life out of the city. It's most that for those who choose a fully urban life, when do we start to deemphasize these vestiges of auto centric culture that sort of took over before cities understood what they were doing.
- graeme 7y ago
  > Walking is great, but lugging groceries sucks, even if the store is close. Are we talking 3-5 min walk close? Just want to establish whether you actually lived in the kind of place people are talking about here. A 5 min walk with groceries shouldn't be burdensome. A 25 min walk would be.
  - lultimouomo 7y ago
    He's complaining about having to carry groceries from the car to the elevator, so I don't think he would consider a 5 min walk with groceries "fine".
    - graeme 7y ago
      True. This seems related to the general decline in fitness of the American population, assuming OP is American. Grip strength has declined massively since the 1980s. A short walk with bags shouldn't be hard or even unpleasant for the typical adult.

otikik 7y ago

When everyone uses "their freedom"[1] every workday at the same time, suddenly no one (including those how choose the bus) has "their freedom". I have an asthmatic child and I live in a big city, so yeah, on my list, somewhat curtailing your right to pollute around goes after my right to not have to bring him to ER with a crisis at 3 in the morning. That is a problem electric cars won't fix, by the way, they'll just move it around. I can do most of my groceries by going downstairs and walking. I can get to the city center in 40 minutes using public transportation. During that time I can look up stuff on my phone without endangering anyone's life, I don't have to worry about finding a parking spot, and I don't have to worry about a bunch of expenses that a car brings. I think your car (and car-centric urban development) is making you less free than me. [1] Related: Molecules of Freedom https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/may/29/energy-department-molecules-freedom-fossil-fuel-rebranding https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/may/29/energy-depa...

johnday 7y ago
> That is a problem electric cars won't fix, by the way, they'll just move it around. "Moving it around" here generally means moving it to electricity generation sites - ie places where people don't live. That's a huge benefit already. And moreover it's much easier to de-pollute electricity generation infrastructure than to de-pollute fossil fuel cars. I'm no kind of electric car fan. I'd much rather see cars die off wholesale, leaving only well-invested public transport and personal transport for the less able. I don't own a car of any sort and plan never to live more than s 15 minute walk from my place of work. But electric cars are still a huge positive step for urban environments.
- simonsarris 7y ago
  Just fyi the majority of particulate matter emitted by cars comes from brakes and tires, not gasoline (diesel changes the equation somewhat) So electric cars still have a lot of particulate emissions, thought less so in environments where they have lots of opportunity for regenerative braking.
  - 7y ago

YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago

Actually, replacing some cars with horses (though probably not horse-drawn cars) would solve some of the problems caused by cars, especially the damage they do to the environment. Inside city bounds, small trucks could be replaced by horse-drawn carriages; they'd be clean (clean_er- horses still er, produce waste) and large trucks should never be allowed in the same areas as pedestrians and bicyclists anyway. I'm not saying that the current pace of life in very big cities could be maintained in this way, but just the reduction in emissions would probably make up for any short-term financial loss.