5 ms·

Still remember how one German Islamist terror group just used their web-email provider's draft feature. They never 'sent' anything. There are often quite simple

by jhh 7y ago

Still remember how one German Islamist terror group just used their web-email provider's draft feature. They never 'sent' anything. There are often quite simple ways to circumvent this kind of thing.

fabiospampinato 7y ago
Yeah only a stupid person can think that backdooring whatsapp will actually prevent the next 9/11. And that's in my opinion the core issue with most politicians, stupidity/tech illiteracy. I'd love to hear about either a possible alternative government structure in which there are no politicians or a way to attract the smartest people in governments.
- cft 7y ago
  That structure is called Republic, as opposed to Democracy. https://youtu.be/rgUs5wtXgL4 https://youtu.be/rgUs5wtXgL4 (the video is a bit dated unfortunately)
- hef19898 7y ago
  On the politicians side I agree, tech illiteracy seems to be largely correct. As far as the intelligence agencies are concerned, well I think they know exactly what they are doing. So they know that a WhatsApp backdoor doesn't help against the next 911, it still allows a lot of general surveillance so. And that is what the agencies are after. Terrorists are just an excuse IMHO.
- gtycomb 7y ago
  Politicians are not at all stupid in general. The problem we have is in their selective listening after we elect them. If a legislator is not technically up to speed, considerable tax payer money goes towards hiring people in government to do the research and the explaining. Some high level advisers may come from organizations with a private agenda and after a few years of working within the goverment these experts pop right back to their industry jobs and we don't hear of them anymore. Ultimately its the same need in whatever form of government we want – we need people we can trust.
  - DollarGuru 7y ago
    Along with the vote in process there should be a vote out process. The public should be able to force a vote of their representative at any time during their term and equally vote in their replacement. The intention being that politicians are aware that they must be consistent with their words and actions throughout their term otherwise they will lose their seat.
    - gtycomb 7y ago
      Hope we find a way to vote some of them out fast. Some months before the last big bail out legislations, in my state we had a US Senate candidate who was new in our political scene, appeared as a local man with a law degree from our state university, and he spoke about how the working people struggled with unemployment, delinquencies etc, as he knew middle class issues and can change the ways of Washington. PBS featured him and I still remember the interview they aired from his kitchen in a middle class home. I am among the people who voted him in. A few years after this election I checked his voting records by chance and I realized that he had voted almost always in favor of the bailout system. I wouldn’t have known this by just reading the news or watching cable. In the next election cycle he won handily, this time supported by organizations with cash to blanket our news with favorable lines for him. That’s how life works I guess.
      - o-__-o 7y ago
        Everyone bitched at me for not voting the last election. To every person who asked me, I asked who they voted for our states railroad commissioner. They all said “oh I don’t know I just voted all blue”. I asked them if they knew what our railroad commissioner did, they did not know. So I proceeded to enlighten them on how the RR commissioner controls everything around our state’s oil fund and that they all just voted for the equivalent of donald trump to manage our oil rich state. Of course he did not win because the other candidate was much better qualified and rural voters knew him en masse (he’s the one that signs checks for all the citizen stewards of oil fields), but I found it hilarious that people would flame me for not voting for a figurehead (president) but be a-ok to vote in some no name hack to manage our schools because of big money advertising in elections
- recycler01 7y ago
  > will prevent the next 9/11 When you consider the societal fallout and everything that has transpired since, the most insane part to me is that by its very occurrence, 9/11 itself already prevented the next 9/11. The "next 9/11" was to crash the fourth hijacked plane into a high value traget; the plane on which the passengers fought back which was crashed in Pennsylvania WAS the next 9/11. This was a tactic that was apprehended and adapted to before the day was out. It worked three times on one day, once. An update to the mental calculus of common folks was all it really took. If we had successfully prevented it re-shaping our society, it would have never, ever, ever worked again. This newfound understanding of the rules coupled with a straight-forward countermeasure like reinforced cockpit doors would have closed off that vector of attack entirely. 19 malevolent people acting in 2001 have colored nearly two decades of policy for America. I remember two particular circulating ideas from the time: "they're attacking our way of life" and "they hate us because we are free." The latter was much more divisive and so people spent much more time arguing with each other about it. Meanwhile, whether intentionally on the part of the attackers or not, the first was very effectively accomplished. Maybe if there had been no 9/11, the agencies charged with protecting Americans would have still been seduced by the ease with which modern technology enables broad surveillance. Maybe hoovering up all the data is too good an opportunity to pass up. Regardless, I yearn for, and still miss the end of history. Our hubris has been rewarded with interesting times.
- ijidak 7y ago
  > I'd love to hear about either a possible alternative government structure in which there are no politicians So the core problem is that humans don't make great rulers. Not are we good at selecting rulers. Individuals are the flaw in the system. And a government without stupidity, means a government without humans. Thus... http://bit.ly/2nsTLdE http://bit.ly/2nsTLdE
  - o-__-o 7y ago
    Blockchain? (I didn’t click your link) But in that system, how do you allow leniency for the 40 year old single mother of 5 who accidentally switched lanes without using a turn signal? Individuals also represent humanity in the government. We are not a nation of robots.
- TaylorAlexander 7y ago
  > I'd love to hear about either a possible alternative government structure in which there are no politicians or a way to attract the smartest people in governments. In all seriousness this is the aim of all historical anarchist movements. Despite the propagandization of the term "anarchism", that philosophy has a long history of attempts and writers and thinkers, and it has more often than not "failed" when a powerful state entity violently disbanded the efforts or killed prominent leaders. In other cases anarchism has not failed at all but has existed in tribal communities in different ways long before european thinkers wrote on the subject. In particular anarcho-communism or the more detailed Communalism of Murray Bookchin (The Next Revolution, 2015 https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/239261/the-next-revolution-by-murray-bookchin/9781781685808 https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/239261/the-next-rev...) looks totally plausible to me. The biggest issue with state-less society is the conflict with the existing state powers this philosophy creates. However the method of governance has found success in present day Mexico with the Zapatistas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ww46lxIc6-w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ww46lxIc6-w As well as Rojava in Syria: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcndZ0nZ0mo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcndZ0nZ0mo
bmarquez 7y ago
It's the same tactic that former CIA Director David Petraeus used to send messages to his mistress. It's been around for a while, so investigators look for it. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2012/11/12/heres-the-e-mail-trick-petraeus-and-broadwell-used-to-communicate/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2012/11/12...
vizzah 7y ago
Good, but your e-mail provider can still see it. And be forced to eavesdropping. Back in '90s I used a nym e-mail to receive e-mails anonymously and with no traces. In a few words - e-mails are encrypted with your PGP key and posted to Usenet groups, where you scan all messages and extract only those signed&encrypted with your key. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudonymous_remailer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudonymous_remailer Yep, there are 1000 and 1 method of communicating securely. Governments are just using this as an excuse to wiretap popular messaging services for general surveillance. Unless they'll get away with making everyone dumber, they shall fail.
- cheez 7y ago
  > Unless they'll get away with making everyone dumber, they shall fail. This is not how it works. As long as enough people are not bothered, they will succeed.
- ShorsHammer 7y ago
  Protonmail has(claims) client-side encryption.
  - tootahe45 7y ago
    And deletes your account for 'fraud' if you log in on an IP someone else used for malicious activity.
    - freedomben 7y ago
      Great, so basically you are a criminal for using a VPN to protect your privacy, since criminals also use VPNs :facepalm:
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - johnisgood 7y ago
        My Twitter account has been suspended for suspicious activity. Someone with whom I disagreed probably tried logging into my account a few times that triggered it, and now I cannot regain access to my account unless I provide my phone number. When you sign up, phone number is optional, but when someone fucks around with you, it becomes mandatory. The fact that the system is designed this way is absurd. This is not limited to Twitter, by the way.
scarmig 7y ago
The idea that using a webmail provider's draft feature provides security might have been true a long time ago--I don't know--but it's really stupid to think it does so nowadays.
- nine_k 7y ago
  It was security through obscurity. Not very reliable against an attack, but very unlikely to attract an attack.
bakuninsbart 7y ago
People can communicate by shooting holes into CS 1.6 walls. There are literally no borders for the imaginative mind.
- srbby 7y ago
  http://habitatchronicles.com/2007/03/the-untold-history-of-toontowns-speedchat-or-blockchattm-from-disney-finally-arrives/ http://habitatchronicles.com/2007/03/the-untold-history-of-t...
holstvoogd 7y ago
Or the paris attacks that were orchestrated on the playstation network and via unencrypted sms.. by ppl that were on a watch list already.. The problem is not encryption here

by jhh 7y ago

Still remember how one German Islamist terror group just used their web-email provider's draft feature. They never 'sent' anything. There are often quite simple ways to circumvent this kind of thing.

fabiospampinato 7y ago

Yeah only a stupid person can think that backdooring whatsapp will actually prevent the next 9/11. And that's in my opinion the core issue with most politicians, stupidity/tech illiteracy. I'd love to hear about either a possible alternative government structure in which there are no politicians or a way to attract the smartest people in governments.

cft 7y ago
That structure is called Republic, as opposed to Democracy. https://youtu.be/rgUs5wtXgL4 https://youtu.be/rgUs5wtXgL4 (the video is a bit dated unfortunately)
hef19898 7y ago
On the politicians side I agree, tech illiteracy seems to be largely correct. As far as the intelligence agencies are concerned, well I think they know exactly what they are doing. So they know that a WhatsApp backdoor doesn't help against the next 911, it still allows a lot of general surveillance so. And that is what the agencies are after. Terrorists are just an excuse IMHO.
gtycomb 7y ago
Politicians are not at all stupid in general. The problem we have is in their selective listening after we elect them. If a legislator is not technically up to speed, considerable tax payer money goes towards hiring people in government to do the research and the explaining. Some high level advisers may come from organizations with a private agenda and after a few years of working within the goverment these experts pop right back to their industry jobs and we don't hear of them anymore. Ultimately its the same need in whatever form of government we want – we need people we can trust.
- DollarGuru 7y ago
  Along with the vote in process there should be a vote out process. The public should be able to force a vote of their representative at any time during their term and equally vote in their replacement. The intention being that politicians are aware that they must be consistent with their words and actions throughout their term otherwise they will lose their seat.
  - gtycomb 7y ago
    Hope we find a way to vote some of them out fast. Some months before the last big bail out legislations, in my state we had a US Senate candidate who was new in our political scene, appeared as a local man with a law degree from our state university, and he spoke about how the working people struggled with unemployment, delinquencies etc, as he knew middle class issues and can change the ways of Washington. PBS featured him and I still remember the interview they aired from his kitchen in a middle class home. I am among the people who voted him in. A few years after this election I checked his voting records by chance and I realized that he had voted almost always in favor of the bailout system. I wouldn’t have known this by just reading the news or watching cable. In the next election cycle he won handily, this time supported by organizations with cash to blanket our news with favorable lines for him. That’s how life works I guess.
    - o-__-o 7y ago
      Everyone bitched at me for not voting the last election. To every person who asked me, I asked who they voted for our states railroad commissioner. They all said “oh I don’t know I just voted all blue”. I asked them if they knew what our railroad commissioner did, they did not know. So I proceeded to enlighten them on how the RR commissioner controls everything around our state’s oil fund and that they all just voted for the equivalent of donald trump to manage our oil rich state. Of course he did not win because the other candidate was much better qualified and rural voters knew him en masse (he’s the one that signs checks for all the citizen stewards of oil fields), but I found it hilarious that people would flame me for not voting for a figurehead (president) but be a-ok to vote in some no name hack to manage our schools because of big money advertising in elections
recycler01 7y ago
> will prevent the next 9/11 When you consider the societal fallout and everything that has transpired since, the most insane part to me is that by its very occurrence, 9/11 itself already prevented the next 9/11. The "next 9/11" was to crash the fourth hijacked plane into a high value traget; the plane on which the passengers fought back which was crashed in Pennsylvania WAS the next 9/11. This was a tactic that was apprehended and adapted to before the day was out. It worked three times on one day, once. An update to the mental calculus of common folks was all it really took. If we had successfully prevented it re-shaping our society, it would have never, ever, ever worked again. This newfound understanding of the rules coupled with a straight-forward countermeasure like reinforced cockpit doors would have closed off that vector of attack entirely. 19 malevolent people acting in 2001 have colored nearly two decades of policy for America. I remember two particular circulating ideas from the time: "they're attacking our way of life" and "they hate us because we are free." The latter was much more divisive and so people spent much more time arguing with each other about it. Meanwhile, whether intentionally on the part of the attackers or not, the first was very effectively accomplished. Maybe if there had been no 9/11, the agencies charged with protecting Americans would have still been seduced by the ease with which modern technology enables broad surveillance. Maybe hoovering up all the data is too good an opportunity to pass up. Regardless, I yearn for, and still miss the end of history. Our hubris has been rewarded with interesting times.
ijidak 7y ago
> I'd love to hear about either a possible alternative government structure in which there are no politicians So the core problem is that humans don't make great rulers. Not are we good at selecting rulers. Individuals are the flaw in the system. And a government without stupidity, means a government without humans. Thus... http://bit.ly/2nsTLdE http://bit.ly/2nsTLdE
- o-__-o 7y ago
  Blockchain? (I didn’t click your link) But in that system, how do you allow leniency for the 40 year old single mother of 5 who accidentally switched lanes without using a turn signal? Individuals also represent humanity in the government. We are not a nation of robots.
TaylorAlexander 7y ago
> I'd love to hear about either a possible alternative government structure in which there are no politicians or a way to attract the smartest people in governments. In all seriousness this is the aim of all historical anarchist movements. Despite the propagandization of the term "anarchism", that philosophy has a long history of attempts and writers and thinkers, and it has more often than not "failed" when a powerful state entity violently disbanded the efforts or killed prominent leaders. In other cases anarchism has not failed at all but has existed in tribal communities in different ways long before european thinkers wrote on the subject. In particular anarcho-communism or the more detailed Communalism of Murray Bookchin (The Next Revolution, 2015 https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/239261/the-next-revolution-by-murray-bookchin/9781781685808 https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/239261/the-next-rev...) looks totally plausible to me. The biggest issue with state-less society is the conflict with the existing state powers this philosophy creates. However the method of governance has found success in present day Mexico with the Zapatistas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ww46lxIc6-w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ww46lxIc6-w As well as Rojava in Syria: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcndZ0nZ0mo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcndZ0nZ0mo

bmarquez 7y ago

It's the same tactic that former CIA Director David Petraeus used to send messages to his mistress. It's been around for a while, so investigators look for it. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2012/11/12/heres-the-e-mail-trick-petraeus-and-broadwell-used-to-communicate/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2012/11/12...

vizzah 7y ago

Good, but your e-mail provider can still see it. And be forced to eavesdropping. Back in '90s I used a nym e-mail to receive e-mails anonymously and with no traces. In a few words - e-mails are encrypted with your PGP key and posted to Usenet groups, where you scan all messages and extract only those signed&encrypted with your key. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudonymous_remailer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudonymous_remailer Yep, there are 1000 and 1 method of communicating securely. Governments are just using this as an excuse to wiretap popular messaging services for general surveillance. Unless they'll get away with making everyone dumber, they shall fail.

cheez 7y ago
> Unless they'll get away with making everyone dumber, they shall fail. This is not how it works. As long as enough people are not bothered, they will succeed.
ShorsHammer 7y ago
Protonmail has(claims) client-side encryption.
- tootahe45 7y ago
  And deletes your account for 'fraud' if you log in on an IP someone else used for malicious activity.
  - freedomben 7y ago
    Great, so basically you are a criminal for using a VPN to protect your privacy, since criminals also use VPNs :facepalm:
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - johnisgood 7y ago
      My Twitter account has been suspended for suspicious activity. Someone with whom I disagreed probably tried logging into my account a few times that triggered it, and now I cannot regain access to my account unless I provide my phone number. When you sign up, phone number is optional, but when someone fucks around with you, it becomes mandatory. The fact that the system is designed this way is absurd. This is not limited to Twitter, by the way.

scarmig 7y ago

The idea that using a webmail provider's draft feature provides security might have been true a long time ago--I don't know--but it's really stupid to think it does so nowadays.

nine_k 7y ago
It was security through obscurity. Not very reliable against an attack, but very unlikely to attract an attack.

bakuninsbart 7y ago

People can communicate by shooting holes into CS 1.6 walls. There are literally no borders for the imaginative mind.

srbby 7y ago
http://habitatchronicles.com/2007/03/the-untold-history-of-toontowns-speedchat-or-blockchattm-from-disney-finally-arrives/ http://habitatchronicles.com/2007/03/the-untold-history-of-t...

holstvoogd 7y ago

Or the paris attacks that were orchestrated on the playstation network and via unencrypted sms.. by ppl that were on a watch list already.. The problem is not encryption here