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I'm not sure I fully know your stances on all of this, but Religion is not really a prerequisite for fully appreciating how beautiful yet precarious our biosphe

I'm not sure I fully know your stances on all of this, but Religion is not really a prerequisite for fully appreciating how beautiful yet precarious our biosphere truly is. Engineering solutions to combat or circumvent Climate Change is our ONLY way forward. But first we need to get a critical mass of our American citizenry to be convinced we have an actual problem. Especially, in fact, a large segment of the electorate that's VERY religious and continually refuses to accept the facts about AGW. I say Americans here because a disproportionate percentage was/is being caused by us, and because we also play a unique place in world affairs.

Feuilles_Mortes 7y ago
> Engineering solutions to combat or circumvent Climate Change is our ONLY way forward. I think that this perspective ignores the environmental problems inherent in a capitalist mode of production, and in fact plays into them. I think that a political revolution could be imminent, and I would urge those concerned about the future of life on this planet to consider alternative modes of economics.
- coliveira 7y ago
  Capitalism is based on infinite growth (economists even laugh at people like Malthus who proposed otherwise) and on fungibility of values (money is green no matter where from). This basically leads to a necessity of destroying nature for the sake of realizing economic growth. We need at least start to take seriously the fact that, the way capitalist economy is conducted, there is no way forward to save the environment.
  - lacampbell 7y ago
    By that logic, capitalism leads to a necessity of murdering your business rivals for the sake of realizing growth.
    - coliveira 7y ago
      Capitalism happens inside a framework of laws. There are strong laws against murdering your competitors, that's why this doesn't happen (nowadays). There is a whole set of unethical behaviors, however, that are commonly used for the goal of producing a profit.
      - incompatible 7y ago
        The laws are not generally part of capitalism, but imposed upon it to prevent various harmful activities. Pollution is an example: capitalism itself (the private ownership of the means of production) has no mechanism that could deal with it.
        lacampbell 7y ago
        It absolutely has a mechanism - property damage the private ownership of the means of production Is there any reason you're using marxist terminology?
        incompatible 7y ago
        Property damage is a consequence, not a method of prevention? The damage won't necessarily happen at the place of origination. I'm not sure why you say it's Marxist terminology. It's more or less what Wikipedia uses. Is there another definition that you'd prefer?
        owenmarshall 7y ago
        Pollution is nothing more than a negative externality. People have measurably shorter lifespans due to coal emissions. We aren’t doing anything about that, so why do you think property will be treated any differently?
      - lacampbell 7y ago
        What's your argument? You've so far told mecapitalism leads to terrible things happening in the name of growth unless there are laws against it, which there are, as 'capitalism exists inside a framework of laws'. Your own argument informs us that capitalism does not automatically mean environmental damage will occur.
  - refurb 7y ago
    That explains the sparkling environmental record of the USSR and China!
    - the_af 7y ago
      > That explains the sparkling environmental record of the USSR and China! If you assume that capitalism requires unchecked growth harmful to the environment, it doesn't follow that some specific alternatives to capitalism are automatically healthy for the environment. The only conclusion you can draw (if the initial proposition is true) is that if there is a healthy alternative, it's not capitalism. By the way, some people believe China is currently practicing a form of "state capitalism" (regardless of what they call it, which by the way seems to be "socialist market economy").
      - RootKitBeerCat 7y ago
        Things get overcomplicated when we start using capital “C” words like Communism/Capitalism. The basics are enough: unchecked greed is bad, regardless of the society / system of capital allocation and thought.
      - lacampbell 7y ago
        Whenever people talk about 'capitalism' like this it's usually a communist dog whistle. Otherwise they would talk about specific issues, not "the system is making us do it maaan".
        coliveira 7y ago
        So you are the one assuming that after the end of capitalism only communism is possible...
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - RoutinePlayer 7y ago
    What form of "Capitalism"? The unfettered type that sits all the way to the right of the spectrum (that does't exist, because it would only last a few hours), or the overly regulated one all the way on the left of the spectrum?
- davinic 7y ago
  I disagree. One could change the capitalist model to account and be liable for all externalities and to tax/penalize those firms/countries who refuse to.
  - RoutinePlayer 7y ago
    Right. Something along those lines is what we should be striving for.
monktastic1 7y ago
I agree that religion (especially as it is conceived today) is not the answer. I also agree that engineering will be required. When I said "merely engineer," I meant that engineering cannot be a replacement for our awakening to the "miracle," but must be used in service of it.
chaoticmass 7y ago
Carl Sagan wrote about the numinous, a feeling of awe from looking at the night sky. Can't remember if it was Cosmos, or Contact, or one of his other books. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numinous https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numinous
- keiferski 7y ago
  The Sublime is a similar concept from the Romantic era. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublime_(philosophy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublime_(philosophy)

Feuilles_Mortes 7y ago

> Engineering solutions to combat or circumvent Climate Change is our ONLY way forward. I think that this perspective ignores the environmental problems inherent in a capitalist mode of production, and in fact plays into them. I think that a political revolution could be imminent, and I would urge those concerned about the future of life on this planet to consider alternative modes of economics.

coliveira 7y ago
Capitalism is based on infinite growth (economists even laugh at people like Malthus who proposed otherwise) and on fungibility of values (money is green no matter where from). This basically leads to a necessity of destroying nature for the sake of realizing economic growth. We need at least start to take seriously the fact that, the way capitalist economy is conducted, there is no way forward to save the environment.
- lacampbell 7y ago
  By that logic, capitalism leads to a necessity of murdering your business rivals for the sake of realizing growth.
  - coliveira 7y ago
    Capitalism happens inside a framework of laws. There are strong laws against murdering your competitors, that's why this doesn't happen (nowadays). There is a whole set of unethical behaviors, however, that are commonly used for the goal of producing a profit.
    - incompatible 7y ago
      The laws are not generally part of capitalism, but imposed upon it to prevent various harmful activities. Pollution is an example: capitalism itself (the private ownership of the means of production) has no mechanism that could deal with it.
      - lacampbell 7y ago
        It absolutely has a mechanism - property damage the private ownership of the means of production Is there any reason you're using marxist terminology?
        incompatible 7y ago
        Property damage is a consequence, not a method of prevention? The damage won't necessarily happen at the place of origination. I'm not sure why you say it's Marxist terminology. It's more or less what Wikipedia uses. Is there another definition that you'd prefer?
        owenmarshall 7y ago
        Pollution is nothing more than a negative externality. People have measurably shorter lifespans due to coal emissions. We aren’t doing anything about that, so why do you think property will be treated any differently?
    - lacampbell 7y ago
      What's your argument? You've so far told mecapitalism leads to terrible things happening in the name of growth unless there are laws against it, which there are, as 'capitalism exists inside a framework of laws'. Your own argument informs us that capitalism does not automatically mean environmental damage will occur.
- refurb 7y ago
  That explains the sparkling environmental record of the USSR and China!
  - the_af 7y ago
    > That explains the sparkling environmental record of the USSR and China! If you assume that capitalism requires unchecked growth harmful to the environment, it doesn't follow that some specific alternatives to capitalism are automatically healthy for the environment. The only conclusion you can draw (if the initial proposition is true) is that if there is a healthy alternative, it's not capitalism. By the way, some people believe China is currently practicing a form of "state capitalism" (regardless of what they call it, which by the way seems to be "socialist market economy").
    - RootKitBeerCat 7y ago
      Things get overcomplicated when we start using capital “C” words like Communism/Capitalism. The basics are enough: unchecked greed is bad, regardless of the society / system of capital allocation and thought.
    - lacampbell 7y ago
      Whenever people talk about 'capitalism' like this it's usually a communist dog whistle. Otherwise they would talk about specific issues, not "the system is making us do it maaan".
      - coliveira 7y ago
        So you are the one assuming that after the end of capitalism only communism is possible...
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- RoutinePlayer 7y ago
  What form of "Capitalism"? The unfettered type that sits all the way to the right of the spectrum (that does't exist, because it would only last a few hours), or the overly regulated one all the way on the left of the spectrum?
davinic 7y ago
I disagree. One could change the capitalist model to account and be liable for all externalities and to tax/penalize those firms/countries who refuse to.
- RoutinePlayer 7y ago
  Right. Something along those lines is what we should be striving for.

monktastic1 7y ago

I agree that religion (especially as it is conceived today) is not the answer. I also agree that engineering will be required. When I said "merely engineer," I meant that engineering cannot be a replacement for our awakening to the "miracle," but must be used in service of it.

chaoticmass 7y ago

Carl Sagan wrote about the numinous, a feeling of awe from looking at the night sky. Can't remember if it was Cosmos, or Contact, or one of his other books. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numinous https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numinous

keiferski 7y ago
The Sublime is a similar concept from the Romantic era. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublime_(philosophy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublime_(philosophy)