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In case you're not aware, there is evidence [1] that this sort of "required but not really" job posting deters a lot of people, and especially women, from apply

In case you're not aware, there is evidence [1] that this sort of "required but not really" job posting deters a lot of people, and especially women, from applying even if they would actually meet the (unstated) actual requirements. Making it explicit that you will accept "experience and a good resume" in place of a CS degree might increase the diversity of your applicant pool. [1] https://hbr.org/2014/08/why-women-dont-apply-for-jobs-unless-theyre-100-qualified https://hbr.org/2014/08/why-women-dont-apply-for-jobs-unless...

wvenable 7y ago
The whole point of my comment is to encourage people to who don't exactly meet the requirements to apply. I might attempt to make that more explicit next time but it's a slow process.
- samstokes 7y ago
  And kudos for doing that - but what about candidates who don't read Hacker News (or happened not to see this exact thread)? HN isn't exactly the most welcoming environment for women either.
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- joshmanders 7y ago
  Why would I waste my time applying if it specifically states a CS degree is required? If you don't REQUIRE it, state that. It's not encouraging at all. Last time I was applying for work, I sent out 150 applications/resumes, every single one I look at the list of requirements, if I don't meet one of them, I don't apply because it's a waste of my time.
  - ChrisLomont 7y ago
    >if I don't meet one of them, I don't apply because it's a waste of my time. I've gotten many jobs and not met all the requirements. If you're good in something they want, but miss something they want, they might hire you. Especially if you're the best candidate among all the candidates, none of which often have all the requirements. Not applying certainly takes you out of the pool.
  - new_guy 7y ago
    Job 'requirements' are there to get rid of people like you. If you're not confident in your fundamentals then you won't apply because you can't tick all the boxes. If you ARE confident in your fundamentals then you'll apply and probably get the job and the posted 'requirements' won't even factor into it. Knowing that is the difference between 150 applications, and just 1.
    - dragonwriter 7y ago
      Confidence in one's job skills and confidence in other people’s willingness to disregard what they describe as “requirements” are not necessarily linked.
    - joshmanders 7y ago
      I have 2 fortune 500 companies, one of which is fortune 100, and many large companies including fintech on my resume. I don’t have a fear of my skills or anything, but I do know I don’t have a degree. Guess what, you state that you need a degree, I will skip your job.
    - gizmo686 7y ago
      You don't want to select for people who are confident. You want to select for people who are competent. Unfourtuantly, these features are often inversly correlated.
    - dboreham 7y ago
      You were a little more direct than I would have been, but I was thinking the same thing. Basically ignore the job posting/resume process, or just work with it only as much as you need to in order to get in front of someone with hiring powers. Also, remember that the people who actually decide who to hire are often as frustrated with the process and its artificiality as the applicants.
Pete-Codes 7y ago
Yeah, spot on. Thanks for providing the link.
berdon 7y ago
There's a balance point. When I did interviewing at FANG.Co I would occasionally just get people that were severely under qualified for the role. It might be a large swatch filter but the degree requirement does reduce the number of those applicants and time lost by devs doing technical interviews.
- optimuspaul 7y ago
  technical interviews are the worst thing ever. They prove nothing except that a candidate crammed for you exam and/or work well while being watched. I can't imagine either of those are useful. I did an interview with one of the FAANG.Co once and ended up arguing with the technical interviewer because he was a douche. When I found out he would have been on my team I told the recruiter I wasn't interested anymore. They ended up turning me down anyway because I didn't get along with the guy. Basically he was asking me to implement a JSON parser in brainfuck, not a legit use for either of our time.
  - berdon 7y ago
    That's a myopic and emotionally charged way of looking at it. When I interview people, I ask straight forward, probing questions looking for how the candidate approaches the problem and the path they take to the solution. I don't ask trick questions, I don't mislead the candidate, and I help them as much as I can to get to a solution on their own. However, I look for and probe for information throughout the process. It's relatively easy to discern whether someone knows what they're talking about and can apply it versus someone who crammed for the interview. Moreover, if someone did cram for the interview and was able to apply the knowledge that quickly - great, I want to work with people like that. Had someone asked me to implement a JSON parser in brainfuck - I would have got up and left. More generally - if someone asks me to use a _specific_ language in an interview; it's not someplace aware enough to know that 99% of the time the language is unimportant and not somewhere I want to work. With all that being said - technical interviews are not "the worst thing ever". They serve a vitally important task of ensuring I work with competent and personable people.
    - 7y ago
food_eater 7y ago
Yes! Can't waste a good opportunity to run the ol' women-are-perpetual-victims narrative. Good job for shoe horning that in there, 10/10.

wvenable 7y ago

The whole point of my comment is to encourage people to who don't exactly meet the requirements to apply. I might attempt to make that more explicit next time but it's a slow process.

samstokes 7y ago
And kudos for doing that - but what about candidates who don't read Hacker News (or happened not to see this exact thread)? HN isn't exactly the most welcoming environment for women either.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
joshmanders 7y ago
Why would I waste my time applying if it specifically states a CS degree is required? If you don't REQUIRE it, state that. It's not encouraging at all. Last time I was applying for work, I sent out 150 applications/resumes, every single one I look at the list of requirements, if I don't meet one of them, I don't apply because it's a waste of my time.
- ChrisLomont 7y ago
  >if I don't meet one of them, I don't apply because it's a waste of my time. I've gotten many jobs and not met all the requirements. If you're good in something they want, but miss something they want, they might hire you. Especially if you're the best candidate among all the candidates, none of which often have all the requirements. Not applying certainly takes you out of the pool.
- new_guy 7y ago
  Job 'requirements' are there to get rid of people like you. If you're not confident in your fundamentals then you won't apply because you can't tick all the boxes. If you ARE confident in your fundamentals then you'll apply and probably get the job and the posted 'requirements' won't even factor into it. Knowing that is the difference between 150 applications, and just 1.
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    Confidence in one's job skills and confidence in other people’s willingness to disregard what they describe as “requirements” are not necessarily linked.
  - joshmanders 7y ago
    I have 2 fortune 500 companies, one of which is fortune 100, and many large companies including fintech on my resume. I don’t have a fear of my skills or anything, but I do know I don’t have a degree. Guess what, you state that you need a degree, I will skip your job.
  - gizmo686 7y ago
    You don't want to select for people who are confident. You want to select for people who are competent. Unfourtuantly, these features are often inversly correlated.
  - dboreham 7y ago
    You were a little more direct than I would have been, but I was thinking the same thing. Basically ignore the job posting/resume process, or just work with it only as much as you need to in order to get in front of someone with hiring powers. Also, remember that the people who actually decide who to hire are often as frustrated with the process and its artificiality as the applicants.

Pete-Codes 7y ago

Yeah, spot on. Thanks for providing the link.

berdon 7y ago

There's a balance point. When I did interviewing at FANG.Co I would occasionally just get people that were severely under qualified for the role. It might be a large swatch filter but the degree requirement does reduce the number of those applicants and time lost by devs doing technical interviews.

optimuspaul 7y ago
technical interviews are the worst thing ever. They prove nothing except that a candidate crammed for you exam and/or work well while being watched. I can't imagine either of those are useful. I did an interview with one of the FAANG.Co once and ended up arguing with the technical interviewer because he was a douche. When I found out he would have been on my team I told the recruiter I wasn't interested anymore. They ended up turning me down anyway because I didn't get along with the guy. Basically he was asking me to implement a JSON parser in brainfuck, not a legit use for either of our time.
- berdon 7y ago
  That's a myopic and emotionally charged way of looking at it. When I interview people, I ask straight forward, probing questions looking for how the candidate approaches the problem and the path they take to the solution. I don't ask trick questions, I don't mislead the candidate, and I help them as much as I can to get to a solution on their own. However, I look for and probe for information throughout the process. It's relatively easy to discern whether someone knows what they're talking about and can apply it versus someone who crammed for the interview. Moreover, if someone did cram for the interview and was able to apply the knowledge that quickly - great, I want to work with people like that. Had someone asked me to implement a JSON parser in brainfuck - I would have got up and left. More generally - if someone asks me to use a _specific_ language in an interview; it's not someplace aware enough to know that 99% of the time the language is unimportant and not somewhere I want to work. With all that being said - technical interviews are not "the worst thing ever". They serve a vitally important task of ensuring I work with competent and personable people.
  - 7y ago

food_eater 7y ago

Yes! Can't waste a good opportunity to run the ol' women-are-perpetual-victims narrative. Good job for shoe horning that in there, 10/10.