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People have to have a path to redemption. Stallman apologized and admitted he was wrong. Why is it not acceptable to make a mistake with words? Isn't it impract

People have to have a path to redemption. Stallman apologized and admitted he was wrong. Why is it not acceptable to make a mistake with words? Isn't it impractical to expect everyone to never say something they regret? These are words we're talking about. It's not like Stallman raped a child. Kicking him out of FSF and MIT seems quite excessive for somebody saying something and then apologizing for it. Whether they are Stallman, a student, or anyone really. Do the people involved at FSF and MIT hold themselves to the same standard they're holding Stallman to? We'll surely find out because humans tend to say a lot of stupid shit over the course of their lifetime.

eropple 7y ago
Constructing a situation in which Marvin Minsky somehow was blameless for his relationship with a known pedophile and child sex trafficker and situations directly resulting from that relationship, then projecting the reactions of other people through that situation, is not merely a mistake with words. Coupled with his at-best-real-gross chinstroking about minors, consent, and statutory rape in the past, it demonstrates a pattern. And it's a pattern that, obviously, made enough people uncomfortable as to want to not associate with him--as is their right. MIT doesn't have to give Richard Stallman a do-nothing job. The FSF doesn't have to give Richard Stallman a (nearly) do-nothing job. Everybody makes mistakes, sure. You make up for those mistakes by doing good and doing right and if Stallman wants redemption, literally nobody is stopping him from going after it. They're just not bankrolling it. There's a difference here.
- simplecomplex 7y ago
  > is not merely a mistake with words. Yes. Yes, it is. Are we talking about the same story? We’re talking about something Richard Stallman said. That is his offense and the reason for him being kicked out of FSF and MIT. Since you dodged the whole point of my comment by reiterating that Stallman said something offensive, I’ll restate my point clearly as a question: In your opinion, can someone be forgiven for saying something wrong? and how do they seek that forgiveness other than apologizing and admitting they were wrong? I’m sure like everyone you’ve said horrible shit over your lifetime, whether in public or private, whether strangers or family. If we brought out those people hurt by your words over your lifetime, wouldn’t you want to be forgiven? Don’t hold other people to a different standard than you hold yourself.
  - eropple 7y ago
    Being the kind of person who would do what he did, having a history of being That Guy in shitty and gross ways ("tender embraces" cards, opining about "natalism" on emacs-devel, pedophile apologia over a couple decades) is why this became the straw that broke the camel's back. Saying is a reflection of being, and that is what is so often elided by a certain crowd getting all hot under the T-shirt right now. Particularly for figures with significant platforms, the way to redemption is through demonstrating that one has learned and improved, not merely quickly saying "I'm sorry!" and moving on. Perhaps a good way to start would be for RMS to spend time working with an organization dedicated to helping survivors of sexual assault, learning from that experience, and using his broad platform to discuss what he learns with people who, as this thread amply demonstrates, could sorely use the perspective.
    - simplecomplex 7y ago
      > Being the kind of person who would do what he did And what kind of person are you? You’re a “good” person and Stallman a “bad” one? Stallman’s evil but you’re just ignorant? Ha! I’m not a fan of Stallman, but your shit stinks too.
      - eropple 7y ago
        My shit does stink, yes. Never felt a need to cape up for pedophiles, but I've certainly said and believed some real unfortunate shit. I used to be a shitty little "libertarian" when I was younger who, through saying things, did hurt people. Had the modern MRA/GamerGate funnel existed when I was young I'd probably have fallen into it. As it is, I've spent most of my adult life being coached out of and in many ways deprogramming myself out of being a selfish reactionary, and working (deeds, not words) to make up for being shitty. I'm not a particularly good person--but I'm working on it in a conscious way. He can, too.
      - simplecomplex 7y ago
        I will admit I am not involved in FSF and am realizing I am missing a lot of context here regarding Stallmans apparent history of these types of comments.

eropple 7y ago

Constructing a situation in which Marvin Minsky somehow was blameless for his relationship with a known pedophile and child sex trafficker and situations directly resulting from that relationship, then projecting the reactions of other people through that situation, is not merely a mistake with words. Coupled with his at-best-real-gross chinstroking about minors, consent, and statutory rape in the past, it demonstrates a pattern. And it's a pattern that, obviously, made enough people uncomfortable as to want to not associate with him--as is their right. MIT doesn't have to give Richard Stallman a do-nothing job. The FSF doesn't have to give Richard Stallman a (nearly) do-nothing job. Everybody makes mistakes, sure. You make up for those mistakes by doing good and doing right and if Stallman wants redemption, literally nobody is stopping him from going after it. They're just not bankrolling it. There's a difference here.

simplecomplex 7y ago
> is not merely a mistake with words. Yes. Yes, it is. Are we talking about the same story? We’re talking about something Richard Stallman said. That is his offense and the reason for him being kicked out of FSF and MIT. Since you dodged the whole point of my comment by reiterating that Stallman said something offensive, I’ll restate my point clearly as a question: In your opinion, can someone be forgiven for saying something wrong? and how do they seek that forgiveness other than apologizing and admitting they were wrong? I’m sure like everyone you’ve said horrible shit over your lifetime, whether in public or private, whether strangers or family. If we brought out those people hurt by your words over your lifetime, wouldn’t you want to be forgiven? Don’t hold other people to a different standard than you hold yourself.
- eropple 7y ago
  Being the kind of person who would do what he did, having a history of being That Guy in shitty and gross ways ("tender embraces" cards, opining about "natalism" on emacs-devel, pedophile apologia over a couple decades) is why this became the straw that broke the camel's back. Saying is a reflection of being, and that is what is so often elided by a certain crowd getting all hot under the T-shirt right now. Particularly for figures with significant platforms, the way to redemption is through demonstrating that one has learned and improved, not merely quickly saying "I'm sorry!" and moving on. Perhaps a good way to start would be for RMS to spend time working with an organization dedicated to helping survivors of sexual assault, learning from that experience, and using his broad platform to discuss what he learns with people who, as this thread amply demonstrates, could sorely use the perspective.
  - simplecomplex 7y ago
    > Being the kind of person who would do what he did And what kind of person are you? You’re a “good” person and Stallman a “bad” one? Stallman’s evil but you’re just ignorant? Ha! I’m not a fan of Stallman, but your shit stinks too.
    - eropple 7y ago
      My shit does stink, yes. Never felt a need to cape up for pedophiles, but I've certainly said and believed some real unfortunate shit. I used to be a shitty little "libertarian" when I was younger who, through saying things, did hurt people. Had the modern MRA/GamerGate funnel existed when I was young I'd probably have fallen into it. As it is, I've spent most of my adult life being coached out of and in many ways deprogramming myself out of being a selfish reactionary, and working (deeds, not words) to make up for being shitty. I'm not a particularly good person--but I'm working on it in a conscious way. He can, too.
    - simplecomplex 7y ago
      I will admit I am not involved in FSF and am realizing I am missing a lot of context here regarding Stallmans apparent history of these types of comments.