5 ms·

Let's elevate this conversation beyond the usual conventional wisdom and rhetoric: Flash is not "demonstrably, prima facie" closed. Really, `tptacek`, it takes

Let's elevate this conversation beyond the usual conventional wisdom and rhetoric: Flash is not "demonstrably, prima facie" closed. Really, `tptacek`, it takes almost no independent search to come to a murkier conclusion. Interestingly, while the Flash IDE is most definitely closed, the SWF file format and the tools to create SWFs... it's not so cut and dry. Here's the (Flash 10 SWF Spec)[http://www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/devnet/swf/pdf/swf_file_format_spec_v10.pdf http://www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/devnet/swf/pdf/swf...] There's probably a bunch of stuff left out that'd make implementation difficult, but that hasn't stopped: (GORDON)[https://github.com/tobeytailor/gordon https://github.com/tobeytailor/gordon] -- an open source Flash runtime written in pure JavaScript . It only supports up to Flash v. 2; almost useless, but interesting. Here's the (Flex SDK)[http://opensource.adobe.com/wiki/display/flexsdk/Flex+SDK http://opensource.adobe.com/wiki/display/flexsdk/Flex+SDK] which includes the Flex framework, and a partially open source SWF compiler. Apparently, Flex compiler isn't totally open source because of patents concerning audio and video codecs (I'm recalling this off the top of my head; please verify). Here's (Tamarin)[http://www.mozilla.org/projects/tamarin/ http://www.mozilla.org/projects/tamarin/]. It's a VM for EcmaScript. It's been rolled into SpiderMonkey, the JS engine for FireFox, I think. It includes support for packages, namespaces, classes, and optional strict typing of variables. Really useful stuff for interactive devs that, unfortunately, hasn't been widely adopted. Adobe contributes to WebKit on behalf of Flash & Air; I don't know what their contributions have been/how useful they are, though. I'm a professional interactive dev, and I specialize in Flash, so you might conclude that I'd be biased, and I wouldn't blame you at all. However, as a Flash dev, I'm familiar with the non-marketed vectors of the Flash environment. Take that as you will. We're geeks: let's all invest a little time to investigate the rhetoric. If you really don't like Flash, pick another reason: there are many ;)

tomlin 16y ago
Well said.
tptacek 16y ago
Give me a break. Flash is even less "open" than Microsoft Office. Both have published portions of their formats and semantics. But Microsoft Office at least has credible (if inferior) alternative implementations. What's the credible alternative to Adobe's Flash runtime? And who gives a sh!t if Adobe makes contributions to open source? Contributions to open source don't make Flash open source.
- knowtheory 16y ago
  Then by your definition Java is as closed as Microsoft Office? ActionScript and Java are both published standards. Both have a canonical implementation which dominate distribution. Both are used as web plugins. Both standards are controlled by a single corporate entity. Flash and Java are still free for end users and developers to use and distribute (alternative implementations are handled differently by Oracle & Adobe though). The same can not be said for H.264. If i as a developer build an app that uses H.264 i have 0 confidence that i will not be sued in the future.
  - Locke1689 16y ago
    OpenJDK? GCJ?
    - ZeroGravitas 16y ago
      OpenJDK is the Sun (now Oracle) controlled distribution under open source terms. GCJ (which isn't really a "Java" as you'd normally think of it) was put on the backburner by RedHat once OpenJDK became available.
      - chaosfox 16y ago
        I would gladly accept an OpenFlash, even if the code is from Adobe, at least I would know what exactly I'm running on my machine.
    - knowtheory 16y ago
      No Java implementation is unencumbered as Google is discovering with Dalvik (http://gigaom.com/2010/10/05/google-seeks-dismissal-of-oracles-android-patent-suit/ http://gigaom.com/2010/10/05/google-seeks-dismissal-of-oracl... ), and as the Apache foundation has finally resigned themselves to with the ironically named Harmony (https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the_asf_resigns_from_the https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the_asf_resigns_fr... ).
  - danudey 16y ago
icarus_drowning 16y ago
Isn't the "closed" vs. "open" status of Flash a total red herring? Flash is a browser plugin that any browser maker can choose to support or not to support. Google is arguing that a specified standard should use something more "open". In other words, I have a hard time seeing how bundling a plugin and not supporting a proprietary codec that is vying to be part of a new standard is hypocritical at all. And that above all seems to be the most important part of Gruber's "argument". edit: minor grammatical correction
cookiecaper 16y ago
I need a Flex developer to do some freelance work for me. Do you have any contact info? There isn't any listed in your profile. Sorry that this is off-topic, I just really need a Flex guy before the other lady gets a Flex guy and gets the Flex contract before me.

tomlin 16y ago

Well said.

tptacek 16y ago

Give me a break. Flash is even less "open" than Microsoft Office. Both have published portions of their formats and semantics. But Microsoft Office at least has credible (if inferior) alternative implementations. What's the credible alternative to Adobe's Flash runtime? And who gives a sh!t if Adobe makes contributions to open source? Contributions to open source don't make Flash open source.

knowtheory 16y ago
Then by your definition Java is as closed as Microsoft Office? ActionScript and Java are both published standards. Both have a canonical implementation which dominate distribution. Both are used as web plugins. Both standards are controlled by a single corporate entity. Flash and Java are still free for end users and developers to use and distribute (alternative implementations are handled differently by Oracle & Adobe though). The same can not be said for H.264. If i as a developer build an app that uses H.264 i have 0 confidence that i will not be sued in the future.
- Locke1689 16y ago
  OpenJDK? GCJ?
  - ZeroGravitas 16y ago
    OpenJDK is the Sun (now Oracle) controlled distribution under open source terms. GCJ (which isn't really a "Java" as you'd normally think of it) was put on the backburner by RedHat once OpenJDK became available.
    - chaosfox 16y ago
      I would gladly accept an OpenFlash, even if the code is from Adobe, at least I would know what exactly I'm running on my machine.
  - knowtheory 16y ago
    No Java implementation is unencumbered as Google is discovering with Dalvik (http://gigaom.com/2010/10/05/google-seeks-dismissal-of-oracles-android-patent-suit/ http://gigaom.com/2010/10/05/google-seeks-dismissal-of-oracl... ), and as the Apache foundation has finally resigned themselves to with the ironically named Harmony (https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the_asf_resigns_from_the https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the_asf_resigns_fr... ).
- danudey 16y ago

icarus_drowning 16y ago

Isn't the "closed" vs. "open" status of Flash a total red herring? Flash is a browser plugin that any browser maker can choose to support or not to support. Google is arguing that a specified standard should use something more "open". In other words, I have a hard time seeing how bundling a plugin and not supporting a proprietary codec that is vying to be part of a new standard is hypocritical at all. And that above all seems to be the most important part of Gruber's "argument". edit: minor grammatical correction

cookiecaper 16y ago

I need a Flex developer to do some freelance work for me. Do you have any contact info? There isn't any listed in your profile. Sorry that this is off-topic, I just really need a Flex guy before the other lady gets a Flex guy and gets the Flex contract before me.