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I don't know why I ever bother reading things like this. On one hand, I'm not driven by money, so it doesn't motivate me. On the other, my perspective of having

I don't know why I ever bother reading things like this. On one hand, I'm not driven by money, so it doesn't motivate me. On the other, my perspective of having been in software for about 4-8 years depending on how you count, and struggling to get to net zero—an amount of only about 10k cad—is just sort of crushing when I realize someone fresh out of school can negotiate a 100k signing bonus and more yearly salary than I've ever been offered. It's just this sort of awful sinking feeling knowing that I'm sort of on the periphery of an industry in which most people are making more money than they know what to do with. That said, I'm happy that people get paid well to do something they love, but that can often be very depressing. Not always certainly, but damn if you've never looked out from behind your screen at the sun shining and thought a little less of the React component or whatever saas thing you work on. It's easy to forget that many of these articles, and particularly posts are Blind, are just just riddled with people posturing about the same thing. Edit: I should add the emotional response I tend to have given my circumstance, I do think it's way better to have transparency than not.

hellofunk 7y ago
> most people are making more money than they know what to do with Well, if they are in SF (which many of them are), they know exactly what to do with all the money: pay the rent and share pizza with their 6 roommates.
- craigzucchini 7y ago
  That's also easy to forget ;) 115k ain't going too far in that respect. The U.S is a different place as well, and even that 100k signing bonus won't go that far in replacing student debt. I was surprised that he's a USC grad with a .ca TLD. Edit: At an 11k surplus every month, I take the above comment back.
  - hello_moto 7y ago
    > and even that 100k signing bonus won't go that far in replacing student debt Better than "zero" signing bonus. $100k takes how many years of saving money? This signing bonus is "free money" provided you stay with the company within the agreeable period.
    - tidepod12 7y ago
      > $100k takes how many years of saving money According to one poster in this thread [1], it takes 1 (one) year for him to save up $100k without even trying. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20943752 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20943752
      - hello_moto 7y ago
        He's a unicorn. The rest won't be able to pay up $100k quickly.
        balfirevic 7y ago
        Not according to levels.fyi
        aprdm 7y ago
        Which has mostly unicorns filling the data...
  - manfredo 7y ago
    My starting salary was $110k, and I couldn't sell any stock for my first 3 years. Living in SF was not very hard, I opted to live alone in a studio costing $1.8-1.9k. I could still save about half my post tax income.
    - heyoni 7y ago
      How long ago was this? And do you own your own home now?
      - manfredo 7y ago
        That was 4-5 years ago. No, I don't own my own home. The SF real estate market is inflated, IMO, and I could easily see housing prices drop once the populace has had enough of restrictive development policies. Salaries are high enough that I'm still saving good money while renting.
- tidepod12 7y ago
  The OP of this thread, who lives in SF, mentions he has about $11k left over every month after paying for rent and living expenses, and after spending $1200 a month in 'fun' expenses. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20943699 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20943699 Yes SF is expensive, but these salaries are absurd.
  - craigzucchini 7y ago
    Yikes. Dig the name btw.
  - hellofunk 7y ago
    But you must also look at how much space belongs to that one individual for the rent they pay, vs elsewhere; not to mention, California's very high taxes. It's common for those with seemingly high salaries to have very little space or actually share it with many people, and if you lived like that in other places you'd also end up with more leftover each month, even with a lower salary.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - tidepod12 7y ago
      OP mentions he pays $2400 in rent, which would get you a pretty decent studio or half of a 2br apartment in some very nice places in SF. The $11k leftover is also after taxes (and also after 'fun' spending and utilites/food).
    - filoleg 7y ago
      ok sure, let's imagine that this specific individual decides to spend $2k more on rent to have a place just to himself, which would bring his net after all expenses to over $9k. Still a lot, so the housing costs don't make that much of a difference here.
      - hellofunk 7y ago
        But rent is just part of the picture, and 2k is a low estimate to match actual quality of life. What about the much higher taxes, much higher prices for other aspects of living?
- maerF0x0 7y ago
  +1 to give parent commenter some perspective someone is looking at ~$1200USD a month just to share a bedroom with someone else, closer to double that just to have a private room in a shared home. Approaching $4k to have a place to yourself.
  - craigzucchini 7y ago
    It's context that I had, but is easily forgotten, especially with the .ca TLD. There's taxes and student debt to service as well—probably.
  - hellocs1 7y ago
    Most of my friends pay $1500-$1800 for a bedroom in an apartment. Those paying $2400 all have 1BD or studios. Check Zillow for prices. I am currently living in a gigantic 3BD for $5200.
hello_moto 7y ago
> That said, I'm happy that people get paid well to do something they love, but that can often be very depressing. Not always certainly, The type of fresh-grads that chase FAANG for fame and money aren't necessary the type of developers that love their work and craft. These fresh-grads put career first and craft second. I'd say the majority, not all. There might be one or two pockets of small group of people who love to do these stuffs ... maybe... > but damn if you've never looked out from behind your screen at the sun shining and thought a little less of the React component or whatever saas thing you work on. There's plenty of sun in California ;). Plus, they're doing what they love no? I'd say these folks know what they're getting themselves into (e.g.: still chasing Facebook despite known as cutthroat employer).
- craigzucchini 7y ago
  That's kind of what I figure, though I didn't articulate that super well. My dream used to be working for Google, but it never really occured to me that it would pay substantially more than anywhere else. It was more that I'd met clever people at conferences that were also down to earth and working on products that had to scale, and consequently had interesting impact.
- mav3rick 7y ago
  That is not true. Plenty of people who love their craft (systems for instance), join Google to work with and learn from experienced people. It's almost a kind of apprenticeship in design and architecture that most fledgling startups can't provide. Believe it or not, it is okay to love your craft and expect to be paid. It's not zero sum. In fact I'd say many startup new grads lose out on code reviews and architecture tips by senior people.
  - hello_moto 7y ago
    Your response feels "black OR white" to me while there are nuances. > Believe it or not, it is okay to love your craft and expect to be paid. It's not zero sum I do believe it. Just not the majority of today's fresh-grad that has the attitude. FAANG these days demand you to go over rigorous Leetcode and System Design practices (mostly having to do with high-level scaling architecture and not CODE level which where most of the craft exist unless we changed the definition of craft). Some people have to spend months training themselves in Leetcode because they really really really want that high-paying job in top brand companies. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I'm associating "craft" with writing code, learning best practices, or building products regardless the environment/situation. Not grinding Leetcode HARD problems trapping water 3D: https://leetcode.com/problems/trapping-rain-water-ii/ https://leetcode.com/problems/trapping-rain-water-ii/ Gone are the days where companies hire OSS contributors because they're good at a specific domain. > In fact I'd say many startup new grads lose out on code reviews and architecture tips by senior people. I think you might conclude that startups == mid-size companies like Airbnb and Dropbox? Feels like it's either FAANG or startups while there are middle ground of just about different size of companies with varying years of existence.

hellofunk 7y ago

> most people are making more money than they know what to do with Well, if they are in SF (which many of them are), they know exactly what to do with all the money: pay the rent and share pizza with their 6 roommates.

craigzucchini 7y ago
That's also easy to forget ;) 115k ain't going too far in that respect. The U.S is a different place as well, and even that 100k signing bonus won't go that far in replacing student debt. I was surprised that he's a USC grad with a .ca TLD. Edit: At an 11k surplus every month, I take the above comment back.
- hello_moto 7y ago
  > and even that 100k signing bonus won't go that far in replacing student debt Better than "zero" signing bonus. $100k takes how many years of saving money? This signing bonus is "free money" provided you stay with the company within the agreeable period.
  - tidepod12 7y ago
    > $100k takes how many years of saving money According to one poster in this thread [1], it takes 1 (one) year for him to save up $100k without even trying. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20943752 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20943752
    - hello_moto 7y ago
      He's a unicorn. The rest won't be able to pay up $100k quickly.
      - balfirevic 7y ago
        Not according to levels.fyi
        aprdm 7y ago
        Which has mostly unicorns filling the data...
- manfredo 7y ago
  My starting salary was $110k, and I couldn't sell any stock for my first 3 years. Living in SF was not very hard, I opted to live alone in a studio costing $1.8-1.9k. I could still save about half my post tax income.
  - heyoni 7y ago
    How long ago was this? And do you own your own home now?
    - manfredo 7y ago
      That was 4-5 years ago. No, I don't own my own home. The SF real estate market is inflated, IMO, and I could easily see housing prices drop once the populace has had enough of restrictive development policies. Salaries are high enough that I'm still saving good money while renting.
tidepod12 7y ago
The OP of this thread, who lives in SF, mentions he has about $11k left over every month after paying for rent and living expenses, and after spending $1200 a month in 'fun' expenses. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20943699 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20943699 Yes SF is expensive, but these salaries are absurd.
- craigzucchini 7y ago
  Yikes. Dig the name btw.
- hellofunk 7y ago
  But you must also look at how much space belongs to that one individual for the rent they pay, vs elsewhere; not to mention, California's very high taxes. It's common for those with seemingly high salaries to have very little space or actually share it with many people, and if you lived like that in other places you'd also end up with more leftover each month, even with a lower salary.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - tidepod12 7y ago
    OP mentions he pays $2400 in rent, which would get you a pretty decent studio or half of a 2br apartment in some very nice places in SF. The $11k leftover is also after taxes (and also after 'fun' spending and utilites/food).
  - filoleg 7y ago
    ok sure, let's imagine that this specific individual decides to spend $2k more on rent to have a place just to himself, which would bring his net after all expenses to over $9k. Still a lot, so the housing costs don't make that much of a difference here.
    - hellofunk 7y ago
      But rent is just part of the picture, and 2k is a low estimate to match actual quality of life. What about the much higher taxes, much higher prices for other aspects of living?
maerF0x0 7y ago
+1 to give parent commenter some perspective someone is looking at ~$1200USD a month just to share a bedroom with someone else, closer to double that just to have a private room in a shared home. Approaching $4k to have a place to yourself.
- craigzucchini 7y ago
  It's context that I had, but is easily forgotten, especially with the .ca TLD. There's taxes and student debt to service as well—probably.
- hellocs1 7y ago
  Most of my friends pay $1500-$1800 for a bedroom in an apartment. Those paying $2400 all have 1BD or studios. Check Zillow for prices. I am currently living in a gigantic 3BD for $5200.

hello_moto 7y ago

> That said, I'm happy that people get paid well to do something they love, but that can often be very depressing. Not always certainly, The type of fresh-grads that chase FAANG for fame and money aren't necessary the type of developers that love their work and craft. These fresh-grads put career first and craft second. I'd say the majority, not all. There might be one or two pockets of small group of people who love to do these stuffs ... maybe... > but damn if you've never looked out from behind your screen at the sun shining and thought a little less of the React component or whatever saas thing you work on. There's plenty of sun in California ;). Plus, they're doing what they love no? I'd say these folks know what they're getting themselves into (e.g.: still chasing Facebook despite known as cutthroat employer).

craigzucchini 7y ago
That's kind of what I figure, though I didn't articulate that super well. My dream used to be working for Google, but it never really occured to me that it would pay substantially more than anywhere else. It was more that I'd met clever people at conferences that were also down to earth and working on products that had to scale, and consequently had interesting impact.
mav3rick 7y ago
That is not true. Plenty of people who love their craft (systems for instance), join Google to work with and learn from experienced people. It's almost a kind of apprenticeship in design and architecture that most fledgling startups can't provide. Believe it or not, it is okay to love your craft and expect to be paid. It's not zero sum. In fact I'd say many startup new grads lose out on code reviews and architecture tips by senior people.
- hello_moto 7y ago
  Your response feels "black OR white" to me while there are nuances. > Believe it or not, it is okay to love your craft and expect to be paid. It's not zero sum I do believe it. Just not the majority of today's fresh-grad that has the attitude. FAANG these days demand you to go over rigorous Leetcode and System Design practices (mostly having to do with high-level scaling architecture and not CODE level which where most of the craft exist unless we changed the definition of craft). Some people have to spend months training themselves in Leetcode because they really really really want that high-paying job in top brand companies. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I'm associating "craft" with writing code, learning best practices, or building products regardless the environment/situation. Not grinding Leetcode HARD problems trapping water 3D: https://leetcode.com/problems/trapping-rain-water-ii/ https://leetcode.com/problems/trapping-rain-water-ii/ Gone are the days where companies hire OSS contributors because they're good at a specific domain. > In fact I'd say many startup new grads lose out on code reviews and architecture tips by senior people. I think you might conclude that startups == mid-size companies like Airbnb and Dropbox? Feels like it's either FAANG or startups while there are middle ground of just about different size of companies with varying years of existence.