9 ms·

Fare collection in London is almost frictionless. Almost all public transport can be paid for with contactless debit/credit or prepaid cards. Drivers have no re

Fare collection in London is almost frictionless. Almost all public transport can be paid for with contactless debit/credit or prepaid cards. Drivers have no requirement to verify fares and all stations have self-service terminals. Although the administration cost is not zero, it is almost certainly negligible enough that moving to a taxpayer funded model would increase these costs. This is particularly true given that transport budgets are operated at the regional level and would require the introduction of new regional taxes rather than simply relying on exiting tax revenue. (The politics of passing any new tax legislation would be a monumental hurdle in the first instance). Then there is the question of whether a broad tax is more equitable then the current model. I fail to see how this could be the case given the current system retains the price signal and through a system of concessions ensures that those who most benefit from the provision (e.g. professional working in the inner city) contribute the most and effectively subsidise fares for the rest of society.

crispyporkbites 7y ago
Actually bus drivers can’t move the bus until all passengers have tapped in. Then you have all the ticket machines, barriers, stations, staff etc that would be completely unnecessary. The only real bonus of collecting fares is that tfl acts as a treasury with millions of pounds in funds to invest.
- afarrell 7y ago
  > Actually bus drivers can’t move the bus until all passengers have tapped in. I have observed that this is false in London at least 30 times.
- dx034 7y ago
  Not in London. You can use card readers at all doors and drivers tend to start driving once everyone is on board, not only once everyone has checked in.
  - crispyporkbites 7y ago
    That’s only on the new route masters in zone1, outside of zone 1 there’s one door and everyone must enter through that door, tap in while the driver watches and the driver will not leave until everyone who gets on has paid
AnthonyMouse 7y ago
> Almost all public transport can be paid for with contactless debit/credit or prepaid cards. Drivers have no requirement to verify fares and all stations have self-service terminals. You're talking about the time it takes as you step onto the vehicle. That's not zero, but it's not half of the cost. You also have to fill the card to begin with, but most importantly it causes people to incur an incremental cost for using public transportation, which discourages its use. That's very bad. > Although the administration cost is not zero, it is almost certainly negligible enough that moving to a taxpayer funded model would increase these costs. This is particularly true given that transport budgets are operated at the regional level and would require the introduction of new regional taxes rather than simply relying on exiting tax revenue. There are surely existing regional taxes. The collection cost is therefore sunk and the overhead of adjusting the rate is nominal. Moreover, people don't like paying taxes, but people don't like paying fares either, so it balances out -- or comes out in favor of using taxes because in that case the cost is lower when you don't have the overhead of doing fare collection (and you have the overhead of tax collection either way). > Then there is the question of whether a broad tax is more equitable then the current model. I fail to see how this could be the case given the current system retains the price signal and through a system of concessions ensures that those who most benefit from the provision (e.g. professional working in the inner city) contribute the most and effectively subsidise fares for the rest of society. Professionals working in the inner city don't pay different transit fares than janitors working in the inner city (and if they did you're just imposing income tax but calling it something else and paying more overhead to collect it), and you don't want a pricing signal here because pricing is a method of rationing scarce resources but we want people to use public transit as much as possible.
- chumali 7y ago
  > You also have to fill the card to begin with. Any bank card works, so does Apple/Android pay. Even the prepaid card can be purchased from a self-service machine in less than a minute and topped up via an app. > There are surely existing regional taxes. The only broadly administered regional tax in the UK is the council tax. This only covers property owners. There is no other regional taxation - certainly not one that is broader. You also vastly underestimate the public opposition to taxes versus fare increases. > Professionals working in the inner city don't pay different transit fares than janitors working in the inner city. ...and you don't want a pricing signal... People pay different rates based on how close to the centre they commute to. Typically professionals commute further because the white collar jobs are located in the centre, blue collar workers on the other hand tend look for work close to where they live and are more likely to travel outside of peak hours. As for the price signal, it plays a hugely important part. It enables fares to change depending on demand in order to spread out congestion rather than having everyone commute at rush hour (infrastructure cannot support unlimited travellers and public transport is most certainly a scarce resource that requires rationing). The price signal also provides a strong incentive to cycle/walk by imposing a marginal cost on each journey. This incentive would be completely lost if you'd already been taxed, leading to over-consumption and environmental costs. Your plan would also mean that residents would effectively subsidise the travel of all outsiders - which for cities like London (which get huge amounts of tourists and external commuters) would impose an unfair cost on the residents.

crispyporkbites 7y ago

Actually bus drivers can’t move the bus until all passengers have tapped in. Then you have all the ticket machines, barriers, stations, staff etc that would be completely unnecessary. The only real bonus of collecting fares is that tfl acts as a treasury with millions of pounds in funds to invest.

afarrell 7y ago
> Actually bus drivers can’t move the bus until all passengers have tapped in. I have observed that this is false in London at least 30 times.
dx034 7y ago
Not in London. You can use card readers at all doors and drivers tend to start driving once everyone is on board, not only once everyone has checked in.
- crispyporkbites 7y ago
  That’s only on the new route masters in zone1, outside of zone 1 there’s one door and everyone must enter through that door, tap in while the driver watches and the driver will not leave until everyone who gets on has paid

AnthonyMouse 7y ago

> Almost all public transport can be paid for with contactless debit/credit or prepaid cards. Drivers have no requirement to verify fares and all stations have self-service terminals. You're talking about the time it takes as you step onto the vehicle. That's not zero, but it's not half of the cost. You also have to fill the card to begin with, but most importantly it causes people to incur an incremental cost for using public transportation, which discourages its use. That's very bad. > Although the administration cost is not zero, it is almost certainly negligible enough that moving to a taxpayer funded model would increase these costs. This is particularly true given that transport budgets are operated at the regional level and would require the introduction of new regional taxes rather than simply relying on exiting tax revenue. There are surely existing regional taxes. The collection cost is therefore sunk and the overhead of adjusting the rate is nominal. Moreover, people don't like paying taxes, but people don't like paying fares either, so it balances out -- or comes out in favor of using taxes because in that case the cost is lower when you don't have the overhead of doing fare collection (and you have the overhead of tax collection either way). > Then there is the question of whether a broad tax is more equitable then the current model. I fail to see how this could be the case given the current system retains the price signal and through a system of concessions ensures that those who most benefit from the provision (e.g. professional working in the inner city) contribute the most and effectively subsidise fares for the rest of society. Professionals working in the inner city don't pay different transit fares than janitors working in the inner city (and if they did you're just imposing income tax but calling it something else and paying more overhead to collect it), and you don't want a pricing signal here because pricing is a method of rationing scarce resources but we want people to use public transit as much as possible.

chumali 7y ago
> You also have to fill the card to begin with. Any bank card works, so does Apple/Android pay. Even the prepaid card can be purchased from a self-service machine in less than a minute and topped up via an app. > There are surely existing regional taxes. The only broadly administered regional tax in the UK is the council tax. This only covers property owners. There is no other regional taxation - certainly not one that is broader. You also vastly underestimate the public opposition to taxes versus fare increases. > Professionals working in the inner city don't pay different transit fares than janitors working in the inner city. ...and you don't want a pricing signal... People pay different rates based on how close to the centre they commute to. Typically professionals commute further because the white collar jobs are located in the centre, blue collar workers on the other hand tend look for work close to where they live and are more likely to travel outside of peak hours. As for the price signal, it plays a hugely important part. It enables fares to change depending on demand in order to spread out congestion rather than having everyone commute at rush hour (infrastructure cannot support unlimited travellers and public transport is most certainly a scarce resource that requires rationing). The price signal also provides a strong incentive to cycle/walk by imposing a marginal cost on each journey. This incentive would be completely lost if you'd already been taxed, leading to over-consumption and environmental costs. Your plan would also mean that residents would effectively subsidise the travel of all outsiders - which for cities like London (which get huge amounts of tourists and external commuters) would impose an unfair cost on the residents.