7 ms·

Have you even bothered to check the figures? You mention Oyster cards so I'll assume you're talking about London in which case the operator (TfL) clearly state

Have you even bothered to check the figures? You mention Oyster cards so I'll assume you're talking about London in which case the operator (TfL) clearly states that "Fares are the single largest source of our income (projected to be 47% in 2019/20)". [0] This income more than covers the operational costs, with the difference being used to support new infrastructure projects and upgrades such as the Elizabeth Line (as well as concessions for students, the elderly, etc). Clearly there is a very strong argument for charging. [0] https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/about-tfl/how-we-work/how-we-are-funded https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/about-tfl/how-we-work/how-we-ar...

crispyporkbites 7y ago
Right but how much of those operating costs go away if you don’t have to charge? And let’s say you scope this only to buses (which are used less by commuters, and have real impacts on the environment) Honestly I think not charging for buses in London would net out positively financially, and be better for all involved (faster, less cars on the road, easier to design buses for disabled access and prams etc.)
- lonelappde 7y ago
  Why don't any of the agencies that ever investigated this question come to the same conclusion?
AnthonyMouse 7y ago
What percentage of operating costs are paid for with fares has basically nothing to do with what percentage should be paid for with fares. If paying 100% with taxes results in lower costs per rider because you don't have to pay for fare collection costs and higher use of public transport because there is less friction (which benefits even those who don't use it via lower traffic and pollution etc.), why shouldn't we do that instead?
- chumali 7y ago
  Fare collection in London is almost frictionless. Almost all public transport can be paid for with contactless debit/credit or prepaid cards. Drivers have no requirement to verify fares and all stations have self-service terminals. Although the administration cost is not zero, it is almost certainly negligible enough that moving to a taxpayer funded model would increase these costs. This is particularly true given that transport budgets are operated at the regional level and would require the introduction of new regional taxes rather than simply relying on exiting tax revenue. (The politics of passing any new tax legislation would be a monumental hurdle in the first instance). Then there is the question of whether a broad tax is more equitable then the current model. I fail to see how this could be the case given the current system retains the price signal and through a system of concessions ensures that those who most benefit from the provision (e.g. professional working in the inner city) contribute the most and effectively subsidise fares for the rest of society.
  - crispyporkbites 7y ago
    Actually bus drivers can’t move the bus until all passengers have tapped in. Then you have all the ticket machines, barriers, stations, staff etc that would be completely unnecessary. The only real bonus of collecting fares is that tfl acts as a treasury with millions of pounds in funds to invest.
    - afarrell 7y ago
      > Actually bus drivers can’t move the bus until all passengers have tapped in. I have observed that this is false in London at least 30 times.
    - dx034 7y ago
      Not in London. You can use card readers at all doors and drivers tend to start driving once everyone is on board, not only once everyone has checked in.
      - crispyporkbites 7y ago
        That’s only on the new route masters in zone1, outside of zone 1 there’s one door and everyone must enter through that door, tap in while the driver watches and the driver will not leave until everyone who gets on has paid

crispyporkbites 7y ago

Right but how much of those operating costs go away if you don’t have to charge? And let’s say you scope this only to buses (which are used less by commuters, and have real impacts on the environment) Honestly I think not charging for buses in London would net out positively financially, and be better for all involved (faster, less cars on the road, easier to design buses for disabled access and prams etc.)

lonelappde 7y ago
Why don't any of the agencies that ever investigated this question come to the same conclusion?

AnthonyMouse 7y ago

What percentage of operating costs are paid for with fares has basically nothing to do with what percentage should be paid for with fares. If paying 100% with taxes results in lower costs per rider because you don't have to pay for fare collection costs and higher use of public transport because there is less friction (which benefits even those who don't use it via lower traffic and pollution etc.), why shouldn't we do that instead?

chumali 7y ago
Fare collection in London is almost frictionless. Almost all public transport can be paid for with contactless debit/credit or prepaid cards. Drivers have no requirement to verify fares and all stations have self-service terminals. Although the administration cost is not zero, it is almost certainly negligible enough that moving to a taxpayer funded model would increase these costs. This is particularly true given that transport budgets are operated at the regional level and would require the introduction of new regional taxes rather than simply relying on exiting tax revenue. (The politics of passing any new tax legislation would be a monumental hurdle in the first instance). Then there is the question of whether a broad tax is more equitable then the current model. I fail to see how this could be the case given the current system retains the price signal and through a system of concessions ensures that those who most benefit from the provision (e.g. professional working in the inner city) contribute the most and effectively subsidise fares for the rest of society.
- crispyporkbites 7y ago
  Actually bus drivers can’t move the bus until all passengers have tapped in. Then you have all the ticket machines, barriers, stations, staff etc that would be completely unnecessary. The only real bonus of collecting fares is that tfl acts as a treasury with millions of pounds in funds to invest.
  - afarrell 7y ago
    > Actually bus drivers can’t move the bus until all passengers have tapped in. I have observed that this is false in London at least 30 times.
  - dx034 7y ago
    Not in London. You can use card readers at all doors and drivers tend to start driving once everyone is on board, not only once everyone has checked in.
    - crispyporkbites 7y ago
      That’s only on the new route masters in zone1, outside of zone 1 there’s one door and everyone must enter through that door, tap in while the driver watches and the driver will not leave until everyone who gets on has paid