4 ms·

I keep hearing that blender's UI is no longer the domain of dark wizards ... between the cost of the paid products, and the funky UI of older versions of blende

I keep hearing that blender's UI is no longer the domain of dark wizards ... between the cost of the paid products, and the funky UI of older versions of blender, I could never quite get into 3d modeling and design. Maybe it's time to revisit?

sprafa 7y ago
Absolutely. I just tried it recently after years of shunning it for its UI and it looks and feels fantastically better. It should’ve been like this ages ago but there you go, they’ve finally changed it.
nineteen999 7y ago
I don't mean to sound mean here - 3D art is like any other disicpline here. No software package is going to make good art easy to achieve. Just like any form of programming, making sure that the mesh is rigged correctly, and looks aethetically pleasing, and animates well, takes a lot of hard work. No amount of UI revamps are going to compensate for those who want to do 3D art, but refuse to do the hard yards to make things look good.
- fb03 7y ago
  I was going to point this: It is simply a too complicated workflow. No amount of UI revamping will solve the issue of "having a shit ton of actions that can be done and parameters that can be tweaked". One just needs to bear with the process of learning until it becomes second nature. I had the same "issue" when I was learning music production on a tracker-inspired daw: Renoise. Really steep learning curve, Lots and lots of buttons because you have lots and lots of doable actions. You just need to do it badly enough until you are okay with it. It becomes second nature, part of your hands, really.
  - jsgo 7y ago
    I don't think anyone is pretending that 3D modeling and the like are able to be made simple just by UI changes: any proper craft requires practice and perhaps combined with some innate knack for the discipline. But with computer applications, I think it is pretty fair to say that there are certain expectations of behaviors for applications (or groups of applications) across various OSes which correlates to the intuitiveness of the application itself. Vim and the like are powerful tools, but if someone feels like they're battling it from the onset (or still after a few hours), they may be discouraged from continuing to try and use it and stick with something more akin to what they're used to like edit or nano or something else entirely. As such, the artificial barrier to entry of an obtuse UI and mannerisms (for one, iirc, Blender has/had an opposite behavior for mouse buttons) may've kept some people from using that otherwise would've been inclined to do so. Now it becomes a case of whether they can get over the learning curve of the subject matter itself which, who knows, time will tell I suppose. But at least now, presumably, the application itself won't be the thing that prevents them from digging deeper.
    - nineteen999 7y ago
      (EDIT: I'm going to preface this comment by saying I'm a failed 3D artist, but it's not because Blender has traditionally used right-click to select). The mouse button argument is utterly ridiculous and has been going on at least for as long as I've used Blender, which is over 10 years. The number failed 3D careers I've read about online that are blamed on that choice of "right mouse button click to select" is hilarious (note: left click is the default as of 2.8 so there are no more excuses). It is a minute problem compared to the learning curve of defining a good silhouette, 3D modelling, sculpting, topology, UV layout, rigging, triangulation and animation etc. If people are still getting stuck at the select button being on the wrong side of the mouse, they really don't have the interest. I suggest taking a look at ZBrush UI if you haven't already. Yes it lets you select subtools (meshes) with a left click. In nearly every other way, it has one of the most unconvential UI you will see in nearly any piece of desktop software. It actually works in its favour once you get to know it, but its much more intimidating than Blender, at least for those starting out. You don't hear many complaints about it, well, because ZBrush is not cheap. Yet a massive amount of meshes for 3D games, film, etc are created in ZBrush. Apologies if this comment comes across as brusque but I'm tired of this specious complaint about Blender's UI.
      - jsgo 7y ago
        I’m kind of shocked by this. Careers torpedoed because of being unable to get past the UI (presuming they didn’t come from Maya or some other system)? Would seem that’s the first hurdle before getting to the core of the discipline. Like I’d say it is too early to say that an inability to figure out Visual Studio or Xcode tanked a programming career. Again, I’m saying that if an application doesn’t at least behave in a way that is expected from coming from other applications (either similar ones or common behaviors of applications for a particular OS), it’s going to deter some: perhaps in a way it acts like a gut check of sorts, but it probably eliminates a few that just can’t wrap their heads around the UI. ASP.NET WebForms I don’t think anyone is going to say is God’s gift to web development, but it worked in that the barrier to entry was low for WinForms developers so it allowed companies who wanted to take their desktop applications and move to the web a little easier. If not for it, who knows how many (small) companies would’ve had to shift direction entirely.
- FakeComments 7y ago
  The same arguments apply to programming — but many people entered the field when JS became easy to fiddle with in browsers. UI is important in terms of cost slope, and easy UI allows people (like GP) to dabble — even if they aren’t going to make a masterpiece (or become professional programmers). Your comment strikes me as incredibly elitist: we should want anyone who wants to dabble to be able to, even if they don’t meet your standards for “good art” — just like we want people to have access to scripting languages, for their own purposes, even if they don’t meet our aesthetic preference of “good software”.
  - nineteen999 7y ago
    We do allow it. I pointed out right at the top the number of Blender users vs. Maya users. You can download Blender for free right now, either from the website or through Steam. Left click to select is now the default in 2.8, and going back to 2.6, it was configurable. Now that the left-click argument has been shot down, I'm waiting to hear what the next significant complaint about the Blender UI is. As I've pointed out in another comment, the 3D industry is full of professional software with "unconventional" user interfaces (eg. Zbrush, Syntheyes) that don't have a lot in common with other 3D software, let alone desktop applications in general. Those expensive packages are used by professionals who occasionally bitch about the interface, yet they still manage to produce astounding works of art with them. I'm a rubbish 3D artist. But I understand it is because I'm not prepared to put in the amount of work required to get to a level where I'd like to be. I don't blame my tools. I think your comment is a little disingenuous; I never suggested that only "good artists" understand how to use Blender. Like being a good programmer (which I am also admittedly not), becoming a professional 3D artist is a 10,000 hour (if not more) kind of problem, except for those with extraordinary talent. The reason we hear these comments so frequently about the Blender UI is that it is free, so many people download it, and when they realise that it will take more work than they expect to become proficient, they take they easy way out and blame the UI (IMHO).
- CodeCube 7y ago
  This wasn't really necessary to point out ... I'm not a 3d artist, I don't need to do this, which is why 1) not free professional tools and b) non-intuitive free software UI, was enough of a barrier to keep me out. I'm familiar enough with the 3d workflow/pipeline, so it has nothing to do with an ignorance of what 3d art is and what it takes to accomplish ... but I've mostly stuck with making 2d games when I make games because pixels are easy to push around, and there are a plethora of software out there to do so.
  - nineteen999 7y ago
    See asutekku's comment in this thread regarding Autodesk giving out free student licenses for Maya. I don't know how true it is, or how to go about it, but if the Blender UI is really what is keeping you from pursuing 3D art as a hobby, perhaps that could be a solution.
    - CodeCube 7y ago
      I'm not a student :)
Teknoman117 7y ago
Definitely going to have to check out the newer Blender. Anyone remember the "hidden menus" you had to know which part of the window to drag them out of?

sprafa 7y ago

Absolutely. I just tried it recently after years of shunning it for its UI and it looks and feels fantastically better. It should’ve been like this ages ago but there you go, they’ve finally changed it.

nineteen999 7y ago

I don't mean to sound mean here - 3D art is like any other disicpline here. No software package is going to make good art easy to achieve. Just like any form of programming, making sure that the mesh is rigged correctly, and looks aethetically pleasing, and animates well, takes a lot of hard work. No amount of UI revamps are going to compensate for those who want to do 3D art, but refuse to do the hard yards to make things look good.

fb03 7y ago
I was going to point this: It is simply a too complicated workflow. No amount of UI revamping will solve the issue of "having a shit ton of actions that can be done and parameters that can be tweaked". One just needs to bear with the process of learning until it becomes second nature. I had the same "issue" when I was learning music production on a tracker-inspired daw: Renoise. Really steep learning curve, Lots and lots of buttons because you have lots and lots of doable actions. You just need to do it badly enough until you are okay with it. It becomes second nature, part of your hands, really.
- jsgo 7y ago
  I don't think anyone is pretending that 3D modeling and the like are able to be made simple just by UI changes: any proper craft requires practice and perhaps combined with some innate knack for the discipline. But with computer applications, I think it is pretty fair to say that there are certain expectations of behaviors for applications (or groups of applications) across various OSes which correlates to the intuitiveness of the application itself. Vim and the like are powerful tools, but if someone feels like they're battling it from the onset (or still after a few hours), they may be discouraged from continuing to try and use it and stick with something more akin to what they're used to like edit or nano or something else entirely. As such, the artificial barrier to entry of an obtuse UI and mannerisms (for one, iirc, Blender has/had an opposite behavior for mouse buttons) may've kept some people from using that otherwise would've been inclined to do so. Now it becomes a case of whether they can get over the learning curve of the subject matter itself which, who knows, time will tell I suppose. But at least now, presumably, the application itself won't be the thing that prevents them from digging deeper.
  - nineteen999 7y ago
    (EDIT: I'm going to preface this comment by saying I'm a failed 3D artist, but it's not because Blender has traditionally used right-click to select). The mouse button argument is utterly ridiculous and has been going on at least for as long as I've used Blender, which is over 10 years. The number failed 3D careers I've read about online that are blamed on that choice of "right mouse button click to select" is hilarious (note: left click is the default as of 2.8 so there are no more excuses). It is a minute problem compared to the learning curve of defining a good silhouette, 3D modelling, sculpting, topology, UV layout, rigging, triangulation and animation etc. If people are still getting stuck at the select button being on the wrong side of the mouse, they really don't have the interest. I suggest taking a look at ZBrush UI if you haven't already. Yes it lets you select subtools (meshes) with a left click. In nearly every other way, it has one of the most unconvential UI you will see in nearly any piece of desktop software. It actually works in its favour once you get to know it, but its much more intimidating than Blender, at least for those starting out. You don't hear many complaints about it, well, because ZBrush is not cheap. Yet a massive amount of meshes for 3D games, film, etc are created in ZBrush. Apologies if this comment comes across as brusque but I'm tired of this specious complaint about Blender's UI.
    - jsgo 7y ago
      I’m kind of shocked by this. Careers torpedoed because of being unable to get past the UI (presuming they didn’t come from Maya or some other system)? Would seem that’s the first hurdle before getting to the core of the discipline. Like I’d say it is too early to say that an inability to figure out Visual Studio or Xcode tanked a programming career. Again, I’m saying that if an application doesn’t at least behave in a way that is expected from coming from other applications (either similar ones or common behaviors of applications for a particular OS), it’s going to deter some: perhaps in a way it acts like a gut check of sorts, but it probably eliminates a few that just can’t wrap their heads around the UI. ASP.NET WebForms I don’t think anyone is going to say is God’s gift to web development, but it worked in that the barrier to entry was low for WinForms developers so it allowed companies who wanted to take their desktop applications and move to the web a little easier. If not for it, who knows how many (small) companies would’ve had to shift direction entirely.
FakeComments 7y ago
The same arguments apply to programming — but many people entered the field when JS became easy to fiddle with in browsers. UI is important in terms of cost slope, and easy UI allows people (like GP) to dabble — even if they aren’t going to make a masterpiece (or become professional programmers). Your comment strikes me as incredibly elitist: we should want anyone who wants to dabble to be able to, even if they don’t meet your standards for “good art” — just like we want people to have access to scripting languages, for their own purposes, even if they don’t meet our aesthetic preference of “good software”.
- nineteen999 7y ago
  We do allow it. I pointed out right at the top the number of Blender users vs. Maya users. You can download Blender for free right now, either from the website or through Steam. Left click to select is now the default in 2.8, and going back to 2.6, it was configurable. Now that the left-click argument has been shot down, I'm waiting to hear what the next significant complaint about the Blender UI is. As I've pointed out in another comment, the 3D industry is full of professional software with "unconventional" user interfaces (eg. Zbrush, Syntheyes) that don't have a lot in common with other 3D software, let alone desktop applications in general. Those expensive packages are used by professionals who occasionally bitch about the interface, yet they still manage to produce astounding works of art with them. I'm a rubbish 3D artist. But I understand it is because I'm not prepared to put in the amount of work required to get to a level where I'd like to be. I don't blame my tools. I think your comment is a little disingenuous; I never suggested that only "good artists" understand how to use Blender. Like being a good programmer (which I am also admittedly not), becoming a professional 3D artist is a 10,000 hour (if not more) kind of problem, except for those with extraordinary talent. The reason we hear these comments so frequently about the Blender UI is that it is free, so many people download it, and when they realise that it will take more work than they expect to become proficient, they take they easy way out and blame the UI (IMHO).
CodeCube 7y ago
This wasn't really necessary to point out ... I'm not a 3d artist, I don't need to do this, which is why 1) not free professional tools and b) non-intuitive free software UI, was enough of a barrier to keep me out. I'm familiar enough with the 3d workflow/pipeline, so it has nothing to do with an ignorance of what 3d art is and what it takes to accomplish ... but I've mostly stuck with making 2d games when I make games because pixels are easy to push around, and there are a plethora of software out there to do so.
- nineteen999 7y ago
  See asutekku's comment in this thread regarding Autodesk giving out free student licenses for Maya. I don't know how true it is, or how to go about it, but if the Blender UI is really what is keeping you from pursuing 3D art as a hobby, perhaps that could be a solution.
  - CodeCube 7y ago
    I'm not a student :)

Teknoman117 7y ago

Definitely going to have to check out the newer Blender. Anyone remember the "hidden menus" you had to know which part of the window to drag them out of?