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Would you happen to have any links or book references to this "recent evidence"? While most of success comes from effort and discipline, I've always been under

Would you happen to have any links or book references to this "recent evidence"? While most of success comes from effort and discipline, I've always been under the impression that only the naturally gifted (who also have discipline and drive) can/have achieve/achieved certain things. The dwarf down the street from me will never be a professional football player, and someone with a 100 IQ will never be an astronaut. I've always felt the you-can-always-achieve-whatever-you-want-no-matter-what-if-you-want-it-bad-enough approach to be more than a little cliched and misguided. If recent scientific evidence has disproved this stance of mine, I'm open to changing it.

elai 18y ago
To be honest, I believe that all intelligence comes from innate motivations and practice. You suddenly become 10x more "intelligent" when you actually give a shit or get some innate joy or obsession relieved when you do it. If that is something that is constant within you, you become more and more practiced and a virtuious cycle results. Nothing is too hard to explain, it's just mathematicians are really horrible at communicating.
- byrneseyeview 18y ago
  For whom, though? Brains are complicated, but if yours is severely damaged (through a stroke or head injury) motivation is not necessarily going to fix that. And as far as I know, there aren't any permanent ways to raise IQ. Some environmental factors lead to higher childhood IQ, but these vanish by adulthood. And there are tricks people can use to bump up their scores on IQ tests, but I haven't seen a situation in which practicing for test A raises your score, years later, on test B. This stuff is just more static than that. The danger with what you're saying now is that someone with an IQ of 90 -- someone who could be a fine contributor to society in lots of practical, necessary fields that don't require lots of abstract thinking -- could be inspired to throw away lots of time and risk lots of frustration trying to be a mathematician. We should deal with the fact that wasting education on someone who can't use it is as much a tragedy as failing to educate someone who can use it. By pretending that 'smart' just means 'trying hard', you're doing more harm than good.
  - DaniFong 18y ago
    The problem may be that our predictors are terrible. There are a lot of Nobel prize winners who later discover their 'dismal' performance on IQ tests. I know grad students at Princeton who've confided sub-100 IQ scores, bad SAT's, horrible performance on one math test or another -- it's like this big, shameful secret for otherwise brilliant people. Everyone carries around the absurd burdens of judgments and measurements, but they don't always mean what people think they mean.
    - byrneseyeview 18y ago
      Are there any other quantifiable variables with such high predictive power? I'd be really interested if there were some other test that could better estimate the odds that someone would get a degree, earn lots of money, stay out of jail, vote often, delay having kids, etc. It would be interesting to know more details, which I'm sure you can't divulge without violating someone's privacy. But it would be neat to find out if those people had other skills that correlate strongly with IQ, like the various digit-memorization/recitation tests, or reaction time. Were these people autistic? Were they taking a test in a language they didn't know too well?
      - DaniFong 18y ago
        They weren't autistic, and there didn't seem to be any strange behaviors socially, and they were quite inquisitive and swift on the uptake. I once heard IQ defined as "ability to navigate bureaucracy, getting the answers others think correct in a manner testwriters imagined, and color in the lines" (paraphrased). This may have something to do with the phenomenon here. The odds that someone would 'get a degree, earn lots of money, stay out of jail, vote often, delay having kids, etc.' seem to have more to do with successfully conforming to certain values of society's upper-middle class. I think I'm capable of inventive thought, but I don't particularly want to get another degree, or earn much money, or delay having kids, or vote often, and the sort of things that one has to do to stay out of jail, are, honestly, quite often absurd, and I often rail against them. And if you start to observe, closely, just how these things are tested, you'll start to get the impression that maybe bright people will find their ways through the cracks more than anticipated. There's an enormous weight given to quick answers -- time directly influences scoring. Linear answers are expected, and alternative interpretations are docked. There's often insufficient information in the questions, or it's based on a model of the world that's wrong. Domain knowledge like mathematics or vocabulary is brought into it. Analogies are made to hone in on one relationship from the many that could exist. Scorers of essays give insufficent weight to substance and too much to form -- despite their lipservice, they are indeed swayed by big words. Even tests like GRE physics are bad. They claim to be testing rapid physical intuition, but in practice what divides good from poor scores is prior experience with 100 simple systems and the ability to get the factors of 2 and pi right with three minutes per question.
g00dn3ss 18y ago
Here is a pop-sci version of some recent research: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-secret-to-raising-smart-kids http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-secret-to-raising-sm... However, this isn't particularly surprising. Research on "grandmasters" in many activities, like chess or pilots, usually shows they've put in 25K hours of practice in their field. I'm certainly not in favor of saying anyone can do anything. Especially in physical activity. There are definitely physiological advantages. The same is also true in mental activities to some extent. A kid with down syndrome probably isn't going to become a math professor. However, I think the point is that most normally developed folks probably haven't hit a ceiling in their math aptitude. They just stopped caring or putting in the effort.

elai 18y ago

To be honest, I believe that all intelligence comes from innate motivations and practice. You suddenly become 10x more "intelligent" when you actually give a shit or get some innate joy or obsession relieved when you do it. If that is something that is constant within you, you become more and more practiced and a virtuious cycle results. Nothing is too hard to explain, it's just mathematicians are really horrible at communicating.

byrneseyeview 18y ago
For whom, though? Brains are complicated, but if yours is severely damaged (through a stroke or head injury) motivation is not necessarily going to fix that. And as far as I know, there aren't any permanent ways to raise IQ. Some environmental factors lead to higher childhood IQ, but these vanish by adulthood. And there are tricks people can use to bump up their scores on IQ tests, but I haven't seen a situation in which practicing for test A raises your score, years later, on test B. This stuff is just more static than that. The danger with what you're saying now is that someone with an IQ of 90 -- someone who could be a fine contributor to society in lots of practical, necessary fields that don't require lots of abstract thinking -- could be inspired to throw away lots of time and risk lots of frustration trying to be a mathematician. We should deal with the fact that wasting education on someone who can't use it is as much a tragedy as failing to educate someone who can use it. By pretending that 'smart' just means 'trying hard', you're doing more harm than good.
- DaniFong 18y ago
  The problem may be that our predictors are terrible. There are a lot of Nobel prize winners who later discover their 'dismal' performance on IQ tests. I know grad students at Princeton who've confided sub-100 IQ scores, bad SAT's, horrible performance on one math test or another -- it's like this big, shameful secret for otherwise brilliant people. Everyone carries around the absurd burdens of judgments and measurements, but they don't always mean what people think they mean.
  - byrneseyeview 18y ago
    Are there any other quantifiable variables with such high predictive power? I'd be really interested if there were some other test that could better estimate the odds that someone would get a degree, earn lots of money, stay out of jail, vote often, delay having kids, etc. It would be interesting to know more details, which I'm sure you can't divulge without violating someone's privacy. But it would be neat to find out if those people had other skills that correlate strongly with IQ, like the various digit-memorization/recitation tests, or reaction time. Were these people autistic? Were they taking a test in a language they didn't know too well?
    - DaniFong 18y ago
      They weren't autistic, and there didn't seem to be any strange behaviors socially, and they were quite inquisitive and swift on the uptake. I once heard IQ defined as "ability to navigate bureaucracy, getting the answers others think correct in a manner testwriters imagined, and color in the lines" (paraphrased). This may have something to do with the phenomenon here. The odds that someone would 'get a degree, earn lots of money, stay out of jail, vote often, delay having kids, etc.' seem to have more to do with successfully conforming to certain values of society's upper-middle class. I think I'm capable of inventive thought, but I don't particularly want to get another degree, or earn much money, or delay having kids, or vote often, and the sort of things that one has to do to stay out of jail, are, honestly, quite often absurd, and I often rail against them. And if you start to observe, closely, just how these things are tested, you'll start to get the impression that maybe bright people will find their ways through the cracks more than anticipated. There's an enormous weight given to quick answers -- time directly influences scoring. Linear answers are expected, and alternative interpretations are docked. There's often insufficient information in the questions, or it's based on a model of the world that's wrong. Domain knowledge like mathematics or vocabulary is brought into it. Analogies are made to hone in on one relationship from the many that could exist. Scorers of essays give insufficent weight to substance and too much to form -- despite their lipservice, they are indeed swayed by big words. Even tests like GRE physics are bad. They claim to be testing rapid physical intuition, but in practice what divides good from poor scores is prior experience with 100 simple systems and the ability to get the factors of 2 and pi right with three minutes per question.

g00dn3ss 18y ago

Here is a pop-sci version of some recent research: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-secret-to-raising-smart-kids http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-secret-to-raising-sm... However, this isn't particularly surprising. Research on "grandmasters" in many activities, like chess or pilots, usually shows they've put in 25K hours of practice in their field. I'm certainly not in favor of saying anyone can do anything. Especially in physical activity. There are definitely physiological advantages. The same is also true in mental activities to some extent. A kid with down syndrome probably isn't going to become a math professor. However, I think the point is that most normally developed folks probably haven't hit a ceiling in their math aptitude. They just stopped caring or putting in the effort.