7 ms·

It is fraud because I have no power to modify your bad behavior, when you code a game fraudulently. You can sit in the middle of the continent and get the lay

It is fraud because I have no power to modify your bad behavior, when you code a game fraudulently. You can sit in the middle of the continent and get the lay public to buy software infected with privacy and consumer rights violating program code. That is how DRM and non ownership occured, not because PC gamers wanted it, but because you could force it using internet infrastructure because your customers are 100's of miles away. You no longer have to press CD's/DVD's and give them the complete software. You can just hold parts of the game files back on a computer in your office. AKA selling incomplete software or fraud.

15155 7y ago
Since when are you the legal arbiter of what's "incomplete?" This would be fraud if the deal turned out to be misrepresented: they promised to give you you "all of the software" and you got something "incomplete." I'm willing to bet the Terms of Service for whichever piece of theoretical SaaS you're voluntarily opting to purchase a license for clearly outlines your rights and relationship with the vendor. It's not "fraud" just because you think it ought to be.
- monster99 7y ago
  It is because the internet collectivizes the ignorant public and you can use them as the army of the ignorant to defraud me of my basic rights to general computing. The game industry and microsoft are well ware of the publics lack of understanding of how computers and computer networking work. Two pre-requisites you would need to have a functioning market. The information asymmetry between game buyer and game maker is off the charts. I who do not want DRM and spyware in windows 10 are now forced along because ignorant parents buying computers don't understand or don't care about such an issue. Meaning I lose control of my rights to own my own files and not be spied on because the worlds global public is computer stupid.
tareqak 7y ago
I heavily sympathize with your point of view. I take issue with your use of the word “fraud”, but I also understand what you mean by it based on how you use it. From my experience on HN over the however many years I’ve been here, the way HN commenters use the word “fraud” is predominately centred around the legal definition of fraud (as in “what legally constitutes fraud”) [0]. The way you use the word “fraud” reminds me of how my dad used the word once, and it is closer in my mind to the word “cheated”, even that might be a little strong. I understand the frustration of DRM and having software be split between into client and server when it is arguably unnecessary. I’ve never thought about it has “holding parts of the games files back” given that the company never agreed to give the files in the first place. At the same time, on a longer time-scale, the behaviour is indeed different from before (the Diablo 2 to Diablo 3 example). The one contrived example that I can think of is selling fruit like apples: before you were sold the entire tree, and now you are sold just apple slices, so you don’t even get the seeds, but they were and are being sold under the same packaging of “apples”. I took the time to respond to you because you made good points, the other commenters genuinely seemed to sympathize with you arguments, and you seem to be new here. The wording of your comments taken literally can appear factually inaccurate or exaggerated. However, I remember the same transition period in gaming and I recognize the timeline and the events in your narrative despite not sharing the harshness in your perspective. The personal attacks you made were definitely uncalled for and unnecessary: in your position, I would just say, “What am I missing?” to indicate that there is something about another commenter’s point of view that you are confused about. You will get farther here if you assume positive intent and focus points of confusion at yourself instead of others e.g. instead of saying “you must be delusional to assume X”, say “it doesn’t make sense to me: why assume X?”. Both statements indicate the existence of confusion, but the second one allows for dialog without judging the other commenter. Enjoy HN! [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud
- monster99 7y ago
  The problem is that your narrative missed Microsofts and the tech industries hatred of the fact their customers owned their own software, the entire industry has been chomping at the bit to turn computers into dumb terminals since the beginning. Do you not remember palladium? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next-Generation_Secure_Computing_Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next-Generation_Secure_Computi... Can you really say with a straight face that these companies intentions were well meaning in the face of these patents by activision? https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/10/activisions-patented-method-to-drive-microtransactions-with-matchmaking/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/10/activisions-patented-... The problem is the evidence is overwhelming not in favor of people who believe in software as a service. We have drm in windows 10, have you read the service agreement? For you to even tell me you are one of the reasonable people means you are among the clueless, why would anyone who had a clue about how computers work want an operating system like windows 10? If you're honest, way back in the day when we were playing rocket arena or quake 2 ctf over the net, who in their right PC gaming mind would have predicted Diablo 3 with microtransactions and no ownership, starcraft 2 with no LAN and mtx. Every big budget game is increasingly server locked, that has been the trend for every AAA game. That is the dystopia, to argue that you are reasonable when you look at what happened to the big mainstay properties is delusion. Tribes in the 90's/early 2000's -- we owned it Tribes ascend a decade later -- they own it Quake in the 90's -- we own it Quake in the a decade or more later -- bethesda owns it Doom 2016's multiplayer is matchmaking, meaning bethes can shut it down -- so bethesda owns it. Mechwarrior 1+2+3+4 we owned it vs today --> Mechwarrior online company owns it. Notice the alarming trend there? That was the whole plan and they got everything because it's easy to steal games in an internet enabled society where you don't have to ship complete software on game discs you can just hold part of the game code afte programming it at servers at your company where your customers can't reach and broadcast an incomplete game over the wires over the surface of the earth, who is going to defy your rule and imposition of will? Your game buying customers are trapped at the other end of the fibre optic cables half way across the world. Let's not forget bethesda's attempt to put login auth on classic software like doom. https://www.vg247.com/2019/07/29/doom-doom-2-switch-ps4-xbox-slayers-club-login-to-be-made-optional/ https://www.vg247.com/2019/07/29/doom-doom-2-switch-ps4-xbox... Alright the evidence is overwhelmingly not in your favor, your pro free market types. The modern game market is a market for lemons. IF gamers were rational consumers, mmo's, steam and always online drm wouldn't exist and we'd still be getting boxed games with just single player campaign and multiplayer we fully owned and controlled. It's really that simple, this dividing of a videogame into many chunks over the internet needs explanation from somemone like yourself, while I just stick to the facts. You must come up with elaborte defenses for the practice of not releasing games as "full box products" like they were 99% of game history. Dude where's the complete files for my games? Why did you screw up the networking code and make my game not a regular stand alone application? It's that simple, that's the way PC gaming worked for the first 30 years of computing because there was no real internet that was fast enough to allow game companies to take control of the software.

15155 7y ago

Since when are you the legal arbiter of what's "incomplete?" This would be fraud if the deal turned out to be misrepresented: they promised to give you you "all of the software" and you got something "incomplete." I'm willing to bet the Terms of Service for whichever piece of theoretical SaaS you're voluntarily opting to purchase a license for clearly outlines your rights and relationship with the vendor. It's not "fraud" just because you think it ought to be.

monster99 7y ago
It is because the internet collectivizes the ignorant public and you can use them as the army of the ignorant to defraud me of my basic rights to general computing. The game industry and microsoft are well ware of the publics lack of understanding of how computers and computer networking work. Two pre-requisites you would need to have a functioning market. The information asymmetry between game buyer and game maker is off the charts. I who do not want DRM and spyware in windows 10 are now forced along because ignorant parents buying computers don't understand or don't care about such an issue. Meaning I lose control of my rights to own my own files and not be spied on because the worlds global public is computer stupid.

tareqak 7y ago

I heavily sympathize with your point of view. I take issue with your use of the word “fraud”, but I also understand what you mean by it based on how you use it. From my experience on HN over the however many years I’ve been here, the way HN commenters use the word “fraud” is predominately centred around the legal definition of fraud (as in “what legally constitutes fraud”) [0]. The way you use the word “fraud” reminds me of how my dad used the word once, and it is closer in my mind to the word “cheated”, even that might be a little strong. I understand the frustration of DRM and having software be split between into client and server when it is arguably unnecessary. I’ve never thought about it has “holding parts of the games files back” given that the company never agreed to give the files in the first place. At the same time, on a longer time-scale, the behaviour is indeed different from before (the Diablo 2 to Diablo 3 example). The one contrived example that I can think of is selling fruit like apples: before you were sold the entire tree, and now you are sold just apple slices, so you don’t even get the seeds, but they were and are being sold under the same packaging of “apples”. I took the time to respond to you because you made good points, the other commenters genuinely seemed to sympathize with you arguments, and you seem to be new here. The wording of your comments taken literally can appear factually inaccurate or exaggerated. However, I remember the same transition period in gaming and I recognize the timeline and the events in your narrative despite not sharing the harshness in your perspective. The personal attacks you made were definitely uncalled for and unnecessary: in your position, I would just say, “What am I missing?” to indicate that there is something about another commenter’s point of view that you are confused about. You will get farther here if you assume positive intent and focus points of confusion at yourself instead of others e.g. instead of saying “you must be delusional to assume X”, say “it doesn’t make sense to me: why assume X?”. Both statements indicate the existence of confusion, but the second one allows for dialog without judging the other commenter. Enjoy HN! [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud

monster99 7y ago
The problem is that your narrative missed Microsofts and the tech industries hatred of the fact their customers owned their own software, the entire industry has been chomping at the bit to turn computers into dumb terminals since the beginning. Do you not remember palladium? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next-Generation_Secure_Computing_Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next-Generation_Secure_Computi... Can you really say with a straight face that these companies intentions were well meaning in the face of these patents by activision? https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/10/activisions-patented-method-to-drive-microtransactions-with-matchmaking/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/10/activisions-patented-... The problem is the evidence is overwhelming not in favor of people who believe in software as a service. We have drm in windows 10, have you read the service agreement? For you to even tell me you are one of the reasonable people means you are among the clueless, why would anyone who had a clue about how computers work want an operating system like windows 10? If you're honest, way back in the day when we were playing rocket arena or quake 2 ctf over the net, who in their right PC gaming mind would have predicted Diablo 3 with microtransactions and no ownership, starcraft 2 with no LAN and mtx. Every big budget game is increasingly server locked, that has been the trend for every AAA game. That is the dystopia, to argue that you are reasonable when you look at what happened to the big mainstay properties is delusion. Tribes in the 90's/early 2000's -- we owned it Tribes ascend a decade later -- they own it Quake in the 90's -- we own it Quake in the a decade or more later -- bethesda owns it Doom 2016's multiplayer is matchmaking, meaning bethes can shut it down -- so bethesda owns it. Mechwarrior 1+2+3+4 we owned it vs today --> Mechwarrior online company owns it. Notice the alarming trend there? That was the whole plan and they got everything because it's easy to steal games in an internet enabled society where you don't have to ship complete software on game discs you can just hold part of the game code afte programming it at servers at your company where your customers can't reach and broadcast an incomplete game over the wires over the surface of the earth, who is going to defy your rule and imposition of will? Your game buying customers are trapped at the other end of the fibre optic cables half way across the world. Let's not forget bethesda's attempt to put login auth on classic software like doom. https://www.vg247.com/2019/07/29/doom-doom-2-switch-ps4-xbox-slayers-club-login-to-be-made-optional/ https://www.vg247.com/2019/07/29/doom-doom-2-switch-ps4-xbox... Alright the evidence is overwhelmingly not in your favor, your pro free market types. The modern game market is a market for lemons. IF gamers were rational consumers, mmo's, steam and always online drm wouldn't exist and we'd still be getting boxed games with just single player campaign and multiplayer we fully owned and controlled. It's really that simple, this dividing of a videogame into many chunks over the internet needs explanation from somemone like yourself, while I just stick to the facts. You must come up with elaborte defenses for the practice of not releasing games as "full box products" like they were 99% of game history. Dude where's the complete files for my games? Why did you screw up the networking code and make my game not a regular stand alone application? It's that simple, that's the way PC gaming worked for the first 30 years of computing because there was no real internet that was fast enough to allow game companies to take control of the software.