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The Dutch reclaimed a large proportion of their national territory from the sea, presumably because they needed more space and then proceeded to allow large sca

The Dutch reclaimed a large proportion of their national territory from the sea, presumably because they needed more space and then proceeded to allow large scale immigration from Morocco. I wouldn't like to live in Holland. They're packed like sardines there. Not cycling is probably not an option

Luc 16y ago
I'm baffled. Someone even upvoted this. I guess it's performance art!
- VB6_Forever 16y ago
  Can I ask you to explain what you mean?
  - Luc 16y ago
    I suspect you are trolling? You made a characterization of the Netherlands that seems to be constructed from randomly chosen and misrepresented facts, misunderstandings, and hand-waving...
    - VB6_Forever 16y ago
      I wasn't trolling. The netherlands has increased its area by an extraordinary 25% by reclaiming land from the sea. Despite this the netherlands is one of the most densely populated countries on earth. It has further increased its population by allowing immigration on a large scale, which whatever else its consequences is not going to reduce population density. Now if you look at a nightime satellite view of Europe, the Netherlands is an uninterrupted patch of light. I'd rather live in a country where I have the possibility of escaping from my fellow man every once in a while. That's not possible in Holland so I'd rather not live there. I can, however, see why cycling is popular/necessary there
      - danieldk 16y ago
        Use this list from Wikipedia, and order by population density: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_population_density http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_de... The Netherlands is at the 28th spot, behind countries such as South Korea, Singapore, and Macao. Then compare the densities of e.g. Singapore (7,023 per km^2) and The Netherlands (401 per km^2). Stating the facts makes it all seem far less dramatic, doesn't it?
        VB6_Forever 16y ago
        "Stating the facts makes it all seem far less dramatic, doesn't it?" I don't believe that I have stated any fictions if that's what your last remark implies. I had a look at the wiki page you linked to. Most of those 27 countries ahead of the Netherlands are negligible in terms of size, vatican City, Guernsey, Monaco, St Martin? There are some sizeable countries but I don't believe being able to report a population density lower than, say, Bangladesh, is a cause for celebration. As for living in a country with a population density of over 7000 per sq km, it is not something to be aspired to.
      - jules 16y ago
        The population density difference between living in the city and living in another place is much larger than between living in the Netherlands vs living in e.g. the US. The range of population densities available in nearly any country is enough for the vast majority of people.
        VB6_Forever 16y ago
        Maybe you are correct. But the trend is in the wrong direction. When look at world population growth there is imo potentially a population tsunami approaching. Maybe my pessimism is unfounded, most people here seem to think it will all turn out rosy
- lenni 16y ago
  Sorry, that was a fat-fingered downvote that turned into an upvote.
tybris 16y ago
Reclaimed land is primarily used for farming. The Netherlands is among the largest exporters of farming products, particularly flours and vegetables. Immigration from Morocco and Turkey was invited to fill low-end job as education levels rose and the economy went up the service chain. While family reunions caused immigration to be larger than anticipated, it is likely that additional immigration would otherwise have been necessary. The Dutch economy gets a lot of leverage from the Germany economy and one of its typical problems is overheating, causing a big shortage of workers. High-end job can be filled by the highly educated native population (including third+ generation immigrants), low-end jobs can be filled by new generations of immigrants. Societal problems have arisen from this throughout history. However, today's problem's are relatively minor compared to some of the problems with Moluccans in the '70s. If you think the Netherlands has become hateful of immigration, guess again. The EU now gives the Netherlands access to a large supply of immigrants whenever the economy needs it. The Dutch are loving their cheap Polish construction workers. The Polish will start causing friction and change in Dutch culture at some point, like many generations of immigrants before them. The Dutch won't mind that much though. While it is in their nature to complain, they are among the wealthiest and happiest people. What you're seeing is the result of 400 years of tradesmanship, not stupidity.
- _delirium 16y ago
  > If you think the Netherlands has become hateful of immigration, guess again. It doesn't seem to be a majority view, but politicians running on "zero immigration" platforms, like Pim Fortuyn and Geert Wilders, do seem to have done fairly well at various times. At least, we hear a lot about them in the international media...
  - tybris 16y ago
    Society is in a constant state of flux, that's normal. The Netherlands tends to be rather open about its societal problems. The relatively large immigration of workers from Turkey and Morocco allowed isolated communities to form within the Netherlands. The lack of social contact with natives or government training led them into a relatively poor economic position, either without opportunities that natives enjoy or unaware of them. Within these communities, this led to higher unemployment, lower wages, increased crime rates, and an increased appreciation of the strict religious and political doctrines from their country of origin that does not fit in a modern liberal democracy. Different political streams have different viewpoints on how to deal with cultural frictions caused by immigration. The right-wing populist stream that includes Wilders and Fortuyn has, as can be expected, rather simplistic views on the matter, directly linking increased crime rates to religious affiliation. Their views are supported by around 15% of the electorate, far from a majority. Wilders' party is currently playing a role in government, but the immigration measures it is responsible for are either symbolic or were already planned by previous governments. More importantly, their rhetoric or public debate does not match the reality of public affairs. Immigration is as high as ever and cannot be restricted due to EU policies. However, the general public cares more about cheap construction than about new cultural frictions that will inevitably arise from this.

Luc 16y ago

I'm baffled. Someone even upvoted this. I guess it's performance art!

VB6_Forever 16y ago
Can I ask you to explain what you mean?
- Luc 16y ago
  I suspect you are trolling? You made a characterization of the Netherlands that seems to be constructed from randomly chosen and misrepresented facts, misunderstandings, and hand-waving...
  - VB6_Forever 16y ago
    I wasn't trolling. The netherlands has increased its area by an extraordinary 25% by reclaiming land from the sea. Despite this the netherlands is one of the most densely populated countries on earth. It has further increased its population by allowing immigration on a large scale, which whatever else its consequences is not going to reduce population density. Now if you look at a nightime satellite view of Europe, the Netherlands is an uninterrupted patch of light. I'd rather live in a country where I have the possibility of escaping from my fellow man every once in a while. That's not possible in Holland so I'd rather not live there. I can, however, see why cycling is popular/necessary there
    - danieldk 16y ago
      Use this list from Wikipedia, and order by population density: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_population_density http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_de... The Netherlands is at the 28th spot, behind countries such as South Korea, Singapore, and Macao. Then compare the densities of e.g. Singapore (7,023 per km^2) and The Netherlands (401 per km^2). Stating the facts makes it all seem far less dramatic, doesn't it?
      - VB6_Forever 16y ago
        "Stating the facts makes it all seem far less dramatic, doesn't it?" I don't believe that I have stated any fictions if that's what your last remark implies. I had a look at the wiki page you linked to. Most of those 27 countries ahead of the Netherlands are negligible in terms of size, vatican City, Guernsey, Monaco, St Martin? There are some sizeable countries but I don't believe being able to report a population density lower than, say, Bangladesh, is a cause for celebration. As for living in a country with a population density of over 7000 per sq km, it is not something to be aspired to.
    - jules 16y ago
      The population density difference between living in the city and living in another place is much larger than between living in the Netherlands vs living in e.g. the US. The range of population densities available in nearly any country is enough for the vast majority of people.
      - VB6_Forever 16y ago
        Maybe you are correct. But the trend is in the wrong direction. When look at world population growth there is imo potentially a population tsunami approaching. Maybe my pessimism is unfounded, most people here seem to think it will all turn out rosy
lenni 16y ago
Sorry, that was a fat-fingered downvote that turned into an upvote.

tybris 16y ago

Reclaimed land is primarily used for farming. The Netherlands is among the largest exporters of farming products, particularly flours and vegetables. Immigration from Morocco and Turkey was invited to fill low-end job as education levels rose and the economy went up the service chain. While family reunions caused immigration to be larger than anticipated, it is likely that additional immigration would otherwise have been necessary. The Dutch economy gets a lot of leverage from the Germany economy and one of its typical problems is overheating, causing a big shortage of workers. High-end job can be filled by the highly educated native population (including third+ generation immigrants), low-end jobs can be filled by new generations of immigrants. Societal problems have arisen from this throughout history. However, today's problem's are relatively minor compared to some of the problems with Moluccans in the '70s. If you think the Netherlands has become hateful of immigration, guess again. The EU now gives the Netherlands access to a large supply of immigrants whenever the economy needs it. The Dutch are loving their cheap Polish construction workers. The Polish will start causing friction and change in Dutch culture at some point, like many generations of immigrants before them. The Dutch won't mind that much though. While it is in their nature to complain, they are among the wealthiest and happiest people. What you're seeing is the result of 400 years of tradesmanship, not stupidity.

_delirium 16y ago
> If you think the Netherlands has become hateful of immigration, guess again. It doesn't seem to be a majority view, but politicians running on "zero immigration" platforms, like Pim Fortuyn and Geert Wilders, do seem to have done fairly well at various times. At least, we hear a lot about them in the international media...
- tybris 16y ago
  Society is in a constant state of flux, that's normal. The Netherlands tends to be rather open about its societal problems. The relatively large immigration of workers from Turkey and Morocco allowed isolated communities to form within the Netherlands. The lack of social contact with natives or government training led them into a relatively poor economic position, either without opportunities that natives enjoy or unaware of them. Within these communities, this led to higher unemployment, lower wages, increased crime rates, and an increased appreciation of the strict religious and political doctrines from their country of origin that does not fit in a modern liberal democracy. Different political streams have different viewpoints on how to deal with cultural frictions caused by immigration. The right-wing populist stream that includes Wilders and Fortuyn has, as can be expected, rather simplistic views on the matter, directly linking increased crime rates to religious affiliation. Their views are supported by around 15% of the electorate, far from a majority. Wilders' party is currently playing a role in government, but the immigration measures it is responsible for are either symbolic or were already planned by previous governments. More importantly, their rhetoric or public debate does not match the reality of public affairs. Immigration is as high as ever and cannot be restricted due to EU policies. However, the general public cares more about cheap construction than about new cultural frictions that will inevitably arise from this.