4 ms·

> Atherosclerosis -- the clogging of arteries with fatty deposits What a way to start an article in a website with "science" in its name. Atheroma is an accum

> Atherosclerosis -- the clogging of arteries with fatty deposits What a way to start an article in a website with "science" in its name. Atheroma is an accumulation of white blood cells. White. Blood. Cells. Not fat. "Meat bad, saturated fat bad, eat your necessarily fortified grains and heart-healthy industrially extracted seed oils."

hirenj 7y ago
-oma is a suffix that means tumour. E.g. lymphoma. -sclerosis is a hardening. E.g arthrosclerosis for a hardening of joints.
- glastra 7y ago
  I fail to see what this has to do with my comment. The hardening in atherosclerosis is caused directly and exclusively by atheroma.
  - cageface 7y ago
    Atherosclerosis refers to the buildup of fats, cholesterol and other substances in and on your artery walls (plaque), which can restrict blood flow. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/arteriosclerosis-atherosclerosis/symptoms-causes/syc-20350569 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/arteriosclero... An atheroma, or atheromatous plaque ("plaque"), is an abnormal accumulation of material in the inner layer of the wall of an artery; it is present in the arteries of most adults.[1] The material consists of mostly macrophage cells,[2][3] or debris, containing lipids, calcium and a variable amount of fibrous connective tissue. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheroma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheroma
    - glastra 7y ago
      Pardon my confusion: is this comment for or against the parent? "Plaque" and "atheroma" are synonyms in the context of cardiovascular health. Also, both quotes together go to show the ongoing misconception. Nowhere in the first quote are macrophages and other WBCs mentioned (but they are in the second, luckily). I guess this is what happens when you use quotes from different sources, too.
  - sambe 7y ago
    Everything I've ever read says fatty deposits. The NHS website calls fatty deposits "atheroma". You can find multiple definitions of atherosclerosis/atheroma in other places describing them the same way. Wikipedia says: "While the early stages, based on gross appearance, have traditionally been termed fatty streaks by pathologists, they are not composed of fat cells but of accumulations of white blood cells, especially macrophages, that have taken up oxidized low-density lipoprotein (LDL)." So whilst it may be more accurate to say they are white blood cells that fed on LDL (and presumably contain fatty substances as a result) there is a long tradition of calling them fatty substances, and there is at minimum a connection to fat. It seems misleading to try to discount the role of the fat to me. They don't sound like they are just normal white blood cells. Is there any doubt that the fat plays a causative role? I know a couple of cardiologists who say it is clear. Do you have some references for the idea that fat is not relevant?
    - contravariant 7y ago
      I see. Yeah calling stuff wrapped in macrophages 'white blood cells' is a bit confusing, given that macrophages will wrap around just about any substance that your immune system tries to remove.
    - glastra 7y ago
      What do those cardiologists say? That fat in the blood (triglycerides) causes atherosclerosis? Or dietary fat? Very different things. Regarding the mechanism of atheroma formation, I don't have a list of references handy, but maybe this is a good start: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3152836/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3152836/ Also of interest would be the role of high insulin and/or glucose and the damage they can cause to the arterial walls (inflammation is a necessary condition in the formation of atheroma).
      - sambe 7y ago
        The conventional wisdom: fat in the blood is the main thing to worry about (along with genetics) and that lifestyle factors have a big influence on that. So both, really. Which part of that paper disputes the importance of fat?
eevilspock 7y ago
Atherosclerosis: https://lmgtfy.com/?q=Atherosclerosis https://lmgtfy.com/?q=Atherosclerosis "When plaque (fatty deposits) clogs your arteries, that’s called atherosclerosis." ~ American Heart Association (https://www.heart.org/en/health-topics/cholesterol/about-cholesterol/atherosclerosis https://www.heart.org/en/health-topics/cholesterol/about-cho...) "Atherosclerosis is a disease in which plaque builds up inside your arteries....Plaque is made up of fat, cholesterol, calcium, and other substances found in the blood." ~ https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health-topics/atherosclerosis https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health-topics/atherosclerosis "Atherosclerosis refers to the buildup of fats, cholesterol and other substances in and on your artery walls (plaque), which can restrict blood flow." ~ https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/arteriosclerosis-atherosclerosis/symptoms-causes/syc-20350569 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/arteriosclero...
tomp 7y ago
For the rest of readers confused about this thread - Peter Attia (longevity & performance focused doctor) did a long blog series on atherosclerosis https://peterattiamd.com/the-straight-dope-on-cholesterol-part-i/ https://peterattiamd.com/the-straight-dope-on-cholesterol-pa... my TL;DR (as a non-doctor): LDL "cholesterol" (actually proteins carrying cholesterol and "fat" (triglycerides) in blood) has a tendency to get "stuck" in artery walls. That causes inflamation, which attracts macrophages which also get stuck, and so on until you get plaques ("clogged arteries") and one plaque breaks off and causes a heart attack. Consuming saturated fat / cholesterol is problematic because it causes a decrease of LDL-sensitive receptors and consequentially more LDL in blood. If I understand correctly, the later part of the previous statement is considered settled science ("we know how it actually works" - 1985 Nobel Prize was awarded for this), while the first part (diet) seems to be somewhat debated and has mostly statistical justification ("evidence suggests") and also depends on an individual's genetics.
AnthonBerg 7y ago
Would you please supply references, and perhaps some more context?
- shlant 7y ago
  judging by the tone and wording, OP just seems like another defensive Keto advocate you find on every post that mentions anything about meat or fat being bad...

hirenj 7y ago

-oma is a suffix that means tumour. E.g. lymphoma. -sclerosis is a hardening. E.g arthrosclerosis for a hardening of joints.

glastra 7y ago
I fail to see what this has to do with my comment. The hardening in atherosclerosis is caused directly and exclusively by atheroma.
- cageface 7y ago
  Atherosclerosis refers to the buildup of fats, cholesterol and other substances in and on your artery walls (plaque), which can restrict blood flow. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/arteriosclerosis-atherosclerosis/symptoms-causes/syc-20350569 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/arteriosclero... An atheroma, or atheromatous plaque ("plaque"), is an abnormal accumulation of material in the inner layer of the wall of an artery; it is present in the arteries of most adults.[1] The material consists of mostly macrophage cells,[2][3] or debris, containing lipids, calcium and a variable amount of fibrous connective tissue. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheroma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheroma
  - glastra 7y ago
    Pardon my confusion: is this comment for or against the parent? "Plaque" and "atheroma" are synonyms in the context of cardiovascular health. Also, both quotes together go to show the ongoing misconception. Nowhere in the first quote are macrophages and other WBCs mentioned (but they are in the second, luckily). I guess this is what happens when you use quotes from different sources, too.
- sambe 7y ago
  Everything I've ever read says fatty deposits. The NHS website calls fatty deposits "atheroma". You can find multiple definitions of atherosclerosis/atheroma in other places describing them the same way. Wikipedia says: "While the early stages, based on gross appearance, have traditionally been termed fatty streaks by pathologists, they are not composed of fat cells but of accumulations of white blood cells, especially macrophages, that have taken up oxidized low-density lipoprotein (LDL)." So whilst it may be more accurate to say they are white blood cells that fed on LDL (and presumably contain fatty substances as a result) there is a long tradition of calling them fatty substances, and there is at minimum a connection to fat. It seems misleading to try to discount the role of the fat to me. They don't sound like they are just normal white blood cells. Is there any doubt that the fat plays a causative role? I know a couple of cardiologists who say it is clear. Do you have some references for the idea that fat is not relevant?
  - contravariant 7y ago
    I see. Yeah calling stuff wrapped in macrophages 'white blood cells' is a bit confusing, given that macrophages will wrap around just about any substance that your immune system tries to remove.
  - glastra 7y ago
    What do those cardiologists say? That fat in the blood (triglycerides) causes atherosclerosis? Or dietary fat? Very different things. Regarding the mechanism of atheroma formation, I don't have a list of references handy, but maybe this is a good start: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3152836/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3152836/ Also of interest would be the role of high insulin and/or glucose and the damage they can cause to the arterial walls (inflammation is a necessary condition in the formation of atheroma).
    - sambe 7y ago
      The conventional wisdom: fat in the blood is the main thing to worry about (along with genetics) and that lifestyle factors have a big influence on that. So both, really. Which part of that paper disputes the importance of fat?

eevilspock 7y ago

Atherosclerosis: https://lmgtfy.com/?q=Atherosclerosis https://lmgtfy.com/?q=Atherosclerosis "When plaque (fatty deposits) clogs your arteries, that’s called atherosclerosis." ~ American Heart Association (https://www.heart.org/en/health-topics/cholesterol/about-cholesterol/atherosclerosis https://www.heart.org/en/health-topics/cholesterol/about-cho...) "Atherosclerosis is a disease in which plaque builds up inside your arteries....Plaque is made up of fat, cholesterol, calcium, and other substances found in the blood." ~ https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health-topics/atherosclerosis https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health-topics/atherosclerosis "Atherosclerosis refers to the buildup of fats, cholesterol and other substances in and on your artery walls (plaque), which can restrict blood flow." ~ https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/arteriosclerosis-atherosclerosis/symptoms-causes/syc-20350569 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/arteriosclero...

tomp 7y ago

For the rest of readers confused about this thread - Peter Attia (longevity & performance focused doctor) did a long blog series on atherosclerosis https://peterattiamd.com/the-straight-dope-on-cholesterol-part-i/ https://peterattiamd.com/the-straight-dope-on-cholesterol-pa... my TL;DR (as a non-doctor): LDL "cholesterol" (actually proteins carrying cholesterol and "fat" (triglycerides) in blood) has a tendency to get "stuck" in artery walls. That causes inflamation, which attracts macrophages which also get stuck, and so on until you get plaques ("clogged arteries") and one plaque breaks off and causes a heart attack. Consuming saturated fat / cholesterol is problematic because it causes a decrease of LDL-sensitive receptors and consequentially more LDL in blood. If I understand correctly, the later part of the previous statement is considered settled science ("we know how it actually works" - 1985 Nobel Prize was awarded for this), while the first part (diet) seems to be somewhat debated and has mostly statistical justification ("evidence suggests") and also depends on an individual's genetics.

AnthonBerg 7y ago

Would you please supply references, and perhaps some more context?

shlant 7y ago
judging by the tone and wording, OP just seems like another defensive Keto advocate you find on every post that mentions anything about meat or fat being bad...