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> "Plus free trade is about trade. Freedom of movement is about people. You can be in favour of free trade, and against freedom of movement" Why ? Humans are a

> "Plus free trade is about trade. Freedom of movement is about people. You can be in favour of free trade, and against freedom of movement" Why ? Humans are a form of "good" so is capital and natural resources. You cant leave 1 out of 4 - the EU single market was created with this in mind. Some countries have excess capital, some have excess labour and some have excess natural resources. Its awfully convenient for you to leave out the ONE thing that a country like India has a surplus in and leave in the thing India is deficit in. > and we have a minimum wage so they wouldn't be competing on $2 a day anyway. Says who ? it depends on enforceability, ask any Indian or any Brit who lived through the Empire. Minimum wage is just a form of price control. > Any decent write ups on this? Not something I'm really aware of. Sure ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inglorious_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inglorious_Empire If you turn back the clock 400 years ago - The Indian rupee used to be similar to the swizz franc. - people around the world used to hold on to the rupee since it didn't suffer from rampant inflation which even many european currencies did. - India was a major exporter of goods to SEAsia, Middle East, Europe and Africa, and imported very little. - All of it changed when the Brits arrived. Which comes back to my original point. You turn forward the clock 100 years and its quite likely every Brit would be singing a different tune, high tariff on Indian semiconductor, Indian medical devices, .... . They already sing a very different tune compared to just 15 years ago with Brexit today. Where are your open markets now ? Its awfully convenient to sit atop 400 years of plunder and loot and claim fair treatment and 'free market'.

benj111 7y ago
"Humans are a form of "good" so is capital and natural resources" Exporting humans is generally a bad thing for the exporting country (brain drain), exporting goods is generally a good thing. Goods can have tariffs applied, how would that work for humans. Immigration is much more politicised than free trade. 3 reasons why they aren't the same. "Says who ? it depends on enforceability" You could say that about anything. Murder is illegal, that needs to be enforced. "ask any Indian or any Brit who lived through the Empire" What has that got to do with anything? Did they have minimum wage legislation during the days of the empire? Because they didn't in Britain. "Minimum wage is just a form of price control" And what's that got to do with anything. Why are you getting all Randian, when you were complaining about me being pro free market in your last comment? "Its awfully convenient to sit atop 400 years of plunder and loot and claim fair treatment and 'free market'" So Italians should be apologising for what the Romans did, and Mongolians for what Mongols did, and don't get me started on the Germans. I'm sure India has it's fair share of dark chapters, its history, I wasn't born, my Parents weren't born, and my Grandparents who were born when India was in the empire are now dead, get over it. PS I didn't 'claim free trade' or 'fair treatment', try reading my first post again, and my explanation of what I said in my 2nd post.
- wrong_variable 7y ago
  > Exporting humans is generally a bad thing for the exporting country (brain drain), exporting goods is generally a good thing. Goods can have tariffs applied, how would that work for humans. Immigration is much more politicized than free trade. 3 reasons why they aren't the same. Goods are just one part of the overall economy, and an increasing small part of it. A large part of the economy is services that involves humans. Would you consider there to be a goods drain ? or a petroleum drain ? Exporting humans is fine if you have a surplus of them, they are just another input like capital, energy and iron. It's not the human that matters, it's the system that is capable of producing them. Your solution of nations restricting movement of its citizen is denying them their right of self determination. Would you rather keep them chained to certain countries against their will ? > Immigration is much more politicised than free trade. Who said ? its not as charged in many Arab Countries who are much more conservative. You could issue 10 year passport with limited voting rights. There are many types of visas you could issue based on what your society finds acceptable. > So Italians should be apologizing for what the Romans did, and Mongolians for what Mongols did, and don't get me started on the Germans. I'm sure India has it's fair share of dark chapters Who said anything about an apology ? India is not some marginalized group in western society that is asking for handout. It's a nuclear state with the second largest standing army in the world. It does not matter what I think or you think. Your original comment is ignoring what India is. Imagine for a second if every African country joined and formed a single country, suddenly Africa would have a lot more leverage in trade. They can get things horribly wrong but they can still come out ahead and bully countries like Switzerland. Africa could introduce 100% external tariff while Switzerland could be at 0% and Africa would still come out ahead. If Switzerland went ahead and introduced 100% tariffs their economy would collapse, because Africa in total has so much buying power.
  - benj111 7y ago
    "Goods are just one part of the overall economy, and an increasing small part of it. A large part of the economy is services that involves humans" We were talking about immigration not services, remember you mentioned visas? "Would you consider there to be a goods drain ? or a petroleum drain" No because I said they were different, if a 20 something emigrates, the country they grew up in has spent years educating that child, keeping it healthy, supporting the parents while they bring up the child, then just as the payback should be starting the child leaves. Its analogous to spending time and money drilling an oil well, and building a refinery, just to see the petrol walk out the door with no money coming back to you. "Who said ?" I did. "India is not some marginalized group in western society that is asking for handout" I never said it was. You're the one whose got a Bee in their bonnet about British colonialism. "Your original comment is ignoring what India is" I've reread my original comment and its clear enough what I said. I've also clarified what I said, so why do you keep ignoring what I have actually said in favour of what you imagine I said?

benj111 7y ago

"Humans are a form of "good" so is capital and natural resources" Exporting humans is generally a bad thing for the exporting country (brain drain), exporting goods is generally a good thing. Goods can have tariffs applied, how would that work for humans. Immigration is much more politicised than free trade. 3 reasons why they aren't the same. "Says who ? it depends on enforceability" You could say that about anything. Murder is illegal, that needs to be enforced. "ask any Indian or any Brit who lived through the Empire" What has that got to do with anything? Did they have minimum wage legislation during the days of the empire? Because they didn't in Britain. "Minimum wage is just a form of price control" And what's that got to do with anything. Why are you getting all Randian, when you were complaining about me being pro free market in your last comment? "Its awfully convenient to sit atop 400 years of plunder and loot and claim fair treatment and 'free market'" So Italians should be apologising for what the Romans did, and Mongolians for what Mongols did, and don't get me started on the Germans. I'm sure India has it's fair share of dark chapters, its history, I wasn't born, my Parents weren't born, and my Grandparents who were born when India was in the empire are now dead, get over it. PS I didn't 'claim free trade' or 'fair treatment', try reading my first post again, and my explanation of what I said in my 2nd post.

wrong_variable 7y ago
> Exporting humans is generally a bad thing for the exporting country (brain drain), exporting goods is generally a good thing. Goods can have tariffs applied, how would that work for humans. Immigration is much more politicized than free trade. 3 reasons why they aren't the same. Goods are just one part of the overall economy, and an increasing small part of it. A large part of the economy is services that involves humans. Would you consider there to be a goods drain ? or a petroleum drain ? Exporting humans is fine if you have a surplus of them, they are just another input like capital, energy and iron. It's not the human that matters, it's the system that is capable of producing them. Your solution of nations restricting movement of its citizen is denying them their right of self determination. Would you rather keep them chained to certain countries against their will ? > Immigration is much more politicised than free trade. Who said ? its not as charged in many Arab Countries who are much more conservative. You could issue 10 year passport with limited voting rights. There are many types of visas you could issue based on what your society finds acceptable. > So Italians should be apologizing for what the Romans did, and Mongolians for what Mongols did, and don't get me started on the Germans. I'm sure India has it's fair share of dark chapters Who said anything about an apology ? India is not some marginalized group in western society that is asking for handout. It's a nuclear state with the second largest standing army in the world. It does not matter what I think or you think. Your original comment is ignoring what India is. Imagine for a second if every African country joined and formed a single country, suddenly Africa would have a lot more leverage in trade. They can get things horribly wrong but they can still come out ahead and bully countries like Switzerland. Africa could introduce 100% external tariff while Switzerland could be at 0% and Africa would still come out ahead. If Switzerland went ahead and introduced 100% tariffs their economy would collapse, because Africa in total has so much buying power.
- benj111 7y ago
  "Goods are just one part of the overall economy, and an increasing small part of it. A large part of the economy is services that involves humans" We were talking about immigration not services, remember you mentioned visas? "Would you consider there to be a goods drain ? or a petroleum drain" No because I said they were different, if a 20 something emigrates, the country they grew up in has spent years educating that child, keeping it healthy, supporting the parents while they bring up the child, then just as the payback should be starting the child leaves. Its analogous to spending time and money drilling an oil well, and building a refinery, just to see the petrol walk out the door with no money coming back to you. "Who said ?" I did. "India is not some marginalized group in western society that is asking for handout" I never said it was. You're the one whose got a Bee in their bonnet about British colonialism. "Your original comment is ignoring what India is" I've reread my original comment and its clear enough what I said. I've also clarified what I said, so why do you keep ignoring what I have actually said in favour of what you imagine I said?