4 ms·

That sort of behavior would be expected for even trivial organisms according to kin selection, though.

mikeg8 7y ago
My brief Wikipedia look-up on kin selection makes it seem like it is an evolutionary strategy exclusive to animals. Do you have examples of non animal species or "trivial organisms" that have used this strategy? Edit: just saw a small snippet on plants down the page but if anything, i think kin selection in and of itself is supporting of consciousness. I have a hard time imaging non-conscious subjects exhibiting kin selection.
- tasty_freeze 7y ago
  > i think kin selection in and of itself is supporting of consciousness Why would you think that? Evolution operates on a population via shaping the distribution of traits via selection. The selection is being done by the environment, not the population, and requires no conscious entity.
  - mikeg8 7y ago
    You are confusing natural selection with kin selection. Natural selection is by the environment, kin selection is by the organism.
    - TTPrograms 7y ago
      That's not really a distinction. Kin selection is a phenomena by which genes can propagate despite them not benefiting (or even harming) the individual that possesses them if it increases the probability of reproduction for other individuals possessing the gene (eg. if they are likely to be related). It's evolutionarily plausible and explains a massive range of traits and behaviors up through full altruism. See eg. "gay uncle" hypothesis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#Gay_uncle_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation... I would describe kin selection as a phenomena that is caused by natural selection because natural selection is a phenomena describing propagation of genes and not propagation of individuals. This is a subtle point and often not taught unless taking specific relevant coursework (I learned about it in an animal behavior class). I am likely using slightly incorrect phrasing and evolutionary science experts may phrase things differently, though I am confident in the essence of this argument.
    - tasty_freeze 7y ago
      > Natural selection is by the environment, kin selection is by the organism. This is simply a false statement. Kin selection isn't distinct from natural selection. Kin selection is the idea that a trait could be harmful to an organism but if it confers sufficient benefit to close relatives (who are likely to have the same gene), the trait can be favored. It is one of the core ideas of "the selfish gene" view -- that from an organisms vantage point such a trait should go extinct, but viewed from the gene's vantage point, it is a desirable trait.

My brief Wikipedia look-up on kin selection makes it seem like it is an evolutionary strategy exclusive to animals. Do you have examples of non animal species or "trivial organisms" that have used this strategy? Edit: just saw a small snippet on plants down the page but if anything, i think kin selection in and of itself is supporting of consciousness. I have a hard time imaging non-conscious subjects exhibiting kin selection.

tasty_freeze 7y ago
> i think kin selection in and of itself is supporting of consciousness Why would you think that? Evolution operates on a population via shaping the distribution of traits via selection. The selection is being done by the environment, not the population, and requires no conscious entity.
- mikeg8 7y ago
  You are confusing natural selection with kin selection. Natural selection is by the environment, kin selection is by the organism.
  - TTPrograms 7y ago
    That's not really a distinction. Kin selection is a phenomena by which genes can propagate despite them not benefiting (or even harming) the individual that possesses them if it increases the probability of reproduction for other individuals possessing the gene (eg. if they are likely to be related). It's evolutionarily plausible and explains a massive range of traits and behaviors up through full altruism. See eg. "gay uncle" hypothesis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#Gay_uncle_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation... I would describe kin selection as a phenomena that is caused by natural selection because natural selection is a phenomena describing propagation of genes and not propagation of individuals. This is a subtle point and often not taught unless taking specific relevant coursework (I learned about it in an animal behavior class). I am likely using slightly incorrect phrasing and evolutionary science experts may phrase things differently, though I am confident in the essence of this argument.
  - tasty_freeze 7y ago
    > Natural selection is by the environment, kin selection is by the organism. This is simply a false statement. Kin selection isn't distinct from natural selection. Kin selection is the idea that a trait could be harmful to an organism but if it confers sufficient benefit to close relatives (who are likely to have the same gene), the trait can be favored. It is one of the core ideas of "the selfish gene" view -- that from an organisms vantage point such a trait should go extinct, but viewed from the gene's vantage point, it is a desirable trait.