7 ms·

Its really simple. We should tax property AND rent to the point where it becomes unprofitable to hoard it for purposes of unproductive wealth extraction. Then c

by hokus 7y ago

Its really simple. We should tax property AND rent to the point where it becomes unprofitable to hoard it for purposes of unproductive wealth extraction. Then change all rent contracts into lease-buy contracts. You would accumulate a good percentage of madly overpriced rentals that no one wants then they go bankrupt one by one. You get those delicious market dynamics we [apparently] crave more than any social convention. Buildings should be hot potatoes that you don't want to hold for to long. With this much demand it wont even affect housing prices but even if it did, who cares? Gradually, (in stead of rent) people pay tax at market rates. We can keep the large scale wealth extraction and continue to force people into productivity only it would be the government doing it. The same logic applies as with the teachers, taxi drivers, cleaners, garbage men, restaurant employees etc: If you don't like it you can just leave the city. Get some of that delicious mobility going and gtfo. They can just leave for the sake of efficiency and availability. Its that simple: Just go away. If you have to chose between [say] 1) a corner store OR 2) a land lord it should be obvious which one to get rid of. If they are contributing to quality of life by selling food and employing people we should consider giving the store a tax cut. One could also extend the tax cut to the people working there and have cheap stores. Its hilariously unproductive to have a usury scheme of greedy unproductive rent seekers extracting wealth from every transaction that is some how remotely related to real estate. I just want to pay for the ice cream, pay the people involved in making the ice cream happen. Why would I pay 80% to someone who doesn't do anything I need?

Pyxl101 7y ago
Can you clarify what problem you are trying to solve with this proposal? No one is obligated to rent a property from someone else. You rent if you believe it's in your interest to rent, instead of buy. Why stop two consenting people from entering into rental agreements, both of whom believe it's in their interest? Some people prefer to rent: they don't want to be obligated to live somewhere for 10 to 30 years. They prefer to be free of commitments and loans (and/or don't have enough cash to buy). I wanted to live somewhere for a medium period of time (a few years) with no significant commitment or risk, then move on. I had just moved to the city and wasn't sure where I would ultimately want to live long-term. Landlords can also rent properties to people who have far worse credit and far fewer assets than would be required to buy the same property. I was able to rent a property much nicer than I could have afforded to buy at the time, since I had income but little wealth and credit. (The landlord in that case is taking on unsecured risk that I will default on our contract.) Landlords also provide useful services to their tenants: they are responsible for all upkeep associated with the property. When I rented, I was glad not to have to deal with any of that. Landlord takes care of all the yard, or common spaces in an apartment, and if something breaks I just call the landlord. If you own appliances and real estate yourself, then you are potentially on the hook for significant costs if something breaks. Maybe the refrigerator breaks and you need to buy a new one: the landlord needs to budget or purchase insurance for that, while a renter does not. Landlords also assume liability for their property: if e.g. asbestos is found on the land, they may be responsible for paying for the cleanup. Property owners are forced to tie up their assets in the real estate. Renters don't have to. Let's say that I have $1 million in cash, and I want to live somewhere. I don't necessarily want to have to invest all of my cash in real estate - not even a down payment on a mortgage. Renting might be a preferable alternative so that I can use my cash for other higher-value investments or to fund a business. Lastly, landlords assume risk. If they can't find a tenant for their property, then it sits idle and they take a loss. When you own property, you can lose a significant amount of money if the property depreciates, as happened during the last recession. When you're renting, your risk is capped - you owe the rent but that's it. Renting isn't wealth extraction. Like staying in a hotel, it's commerce, an exchange of money (rent) for services (temporary right to occupy a property). If you want to buy a property from its current owner, instead of renting it from them in a landlord-tenant relationship, then make them an offer, and if you both agree then you can do that instead.
- Xylakant 7y ago
  > No one is obligated to rent a property from someone else. You rent if you believe it's in your interest to rent, instead of buy. Ok, how does this work. In germany, you usually need to pay 20-30% of the full price from your own saved funds when buying property. 100% financing is rare and usually only available for people that have sufficient assets. So people that have a low income basically never have a chance to buy. They don’t choose to rent. Their only alternative is living in the street. Rents in Berlin have been rising substantially faster than wages for the last decade or so, turning this into a vicious circle that even the middle class cannot escape from.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- drugme 7y ago
  No one is obligated to rent a property from someone else. That's a pretty weird statement to make. Do you really believe that everyone (or even a majority) of people who currently rent are in a position to buy a place to live if they wanted to?
  - Pyxl101 7y ago
    One of the key benefits of renting, that I outlined in my comment above, is that people can typically rent properties that they could not afford to buy. So yes I agree that people could not necessarily afford to buy the same quality and location of property that they might rent. This is a benefit. Cities have high property prices because they are extremely desirable. Lots of people would like to live there, but there is limited land, and not everyone can afford to live there. There must be a way of determining who has the right to occupy the scarce resource that is land, and the market is the solution to that problem in most countries. Although not everyone might be able to afford to buy property in the most desirable cities on earth, such as Berlin, most people can certainly afford to buy property somewhere else. For example, a house that costs $1 million in San Francisco might cost $20k-$50k in Detroit. The further you move away from cities, the cheaper property gets. I think it is reasonable that not everyone can afford to buy property in literally the most desirable, high-demand places in the world, like Berlin or London. People can still afford to buy property elsewhere.
leereeves 7y ago
And who would build new rental properties under those conditions?
- mc32 7y ago
  Under those conditions I think only the state begrudgingly would build large blocks of cookie cutter but pragmatic flats. Something ala eastern block country estate housing. I don’t think we want that. Although some do want that. S better alternative is Tokyo or Singapore (though they had their state built flats too —which inspired state built flats in Brazil.)
- whymsicalburito 7y ago
  They wouldn't, and that's the point. They would build housing for purchase and make their profit on the sale. Pretty simple.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - leereeves 7y ago
    That sounds absolutely awful for anyone who wants to rent.
esoterica 7y ago
If you tax rent, landlords will pass the tax on to renters. All you are doing is making renting more unaffordable.
- whymsicalburito 7y ago
  But buying will be cheaper than renting, so it seems just fine that rents would go up.
  - esoterica 7y ago
    A lot of people cannot afford to buy at any price point.
- hokus 7y ago
  yes, to the point that [say] 10% of the rentals are empty.

by hokus 7y ago

Pyxl101 7y ago

Can you clarify what problem you are trying to solve with this proposal? No one is obligated to rent a property from someone else. You rent if you believe it's in your interest to rent, instead of buy. Why stop two consenting people from entering into rental agreements, both of whom believe it's in their interest? Some people prefer to rent: they don't want to be obligated to live somewhere for 10 to 30 years. They prefer to be free of commitments and loans (and/or don't have enough cash to buy). I wanted to live somewhere for a medium period of time (a few years) with no significant commitment or risk, then move on. I had just moved to the city and wasn't sure where I would ultimately want to live long-term. Landlords can also rent properties to people who have far worse credit and far fewer assets than would be required to buy the same property. I was able to rent a property much nicer than I could have afforded to buy at the time, since I had income but little wealth and credit. (The landlord in that case is taking on unsecured risk that I will default on our contract.) Landlords also provide useful services to their tenants: they are responsible for all upkeep associated with the property. When I rented, I was glad not to have to deal with any of that. Landlord takes care of all the yard, or common spaces in an apartment, and if something breaks I just call the landlord. If you own appliances and real estate yourself, then you are potentially on the hook for significant costs if something breaks. Maybe the refrigerator breaks and you need to buy a new one: the landlord needs to budget or purchase insurance for that, while a renter does not. Landlords also assume liability for their property: if e.g. asbestos is found on the land, they may be responsible for paying for the cleanup. Property owners are forced to tie up their assets in the real estate. Renters don't have to. Let's say that I have $1 million in cash, and I want to live somewhere. I don't necessarily want to have to invest all of my cash in real estate - not even a down payment on a mortgage. Renting might be a preferable alternative so that I can use my cash for other higher-value investments or to fund a business. Lastly, landlords assume risk. If they can't find a tenant for their property, then it sits idle and they take a loss. When you own property, you can lose a significant amount of money if the property depreciates, as happened during the last recession. When you're renting, your risk is capped - you owe the rent but that's it. Renting isn't wealth extraction. Like staying in a hotel, it's commerce, an exchange of money (rent) for services (temporary right to occupy a property). If you want to buy a property from its current owner, instead of renting it from them in a landlord-tenant relationship, then make them an offer, and if you both agree then you can do that instead.

Xylakant 7y ago
> No one is obligated to rent a property from someone else. You rent if you believe it's in your interest to rent, instead of buy. Ok, how does this work. In germany, you usually need to pay 20-30% of the full price from your own saved funds when buying property. 100% financing is rare and usually only available for people that have sufficient assets. So people that have a low income basically never have a chance to buy. They don’t choose to rent. Their only alternative is living in the street. Rents in Berlin have been rising substantially faster than wages for the last decade or so, turning this into a vicious circle that even the middle class cannot escape from.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
drugme 7y ago
No one is obligated to rent a property from someone else. That's a pretty weird statement to make. Do you really believe that everyone (or even a majority) of people who currently rent are in a position to buy a place to live if they wanted to?
- Pyxl101 7y ago
  One of the key benefits of renting, that I outlined in my comment above, is that people can typically rent properties that they could not afford to buy. So yes I agree that people could not necessarily afford to buy the same quality and location of property that they might rent. This is a benefit. Cities have high property prices because they are extremely desirable. Lots of people would like to live there, but there is limited land, and not everyone can afford to live there. There must be a way of determining who has the right to occupy the scarce resource that is land, and the market is the solution to that problem in most countries. Although not everyone might be able to afford to buy property in the most desirable cities on earth, such as Berlin, most people can certainly afford to buy property somewhere else. For example, a house that costs $1 million in San Francisco might cost $20k-$50k in Detroit. The further you move away from cities, the cheaper property gets. I think it is reasonable that not everyone can afford to buy property in literally the most desirable, high-demand places in the world, like Berlin or London. People can still afford to buy property elsewhere.

leereeves 7y ago

And who would build new rental properties under those conditions?

mc32 7y ago
Under those conditions I think only the state begrudgingly would build large blocks of cookie cutter but pragmatic flats. Something ala eastern block country estate housing. I don’t think we want that. Although some do want that. S better alternative is Tokyo or Singapore (though they had their state built flats too —which inspired state built flats in Brazil.)
whymsicalburito 7y ago
They wouldn't, and that's the point. They would build housing for purchase and make their profit on the sale. Pretty simple.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- leereeves 7y ago
  That sounds absolutely awful for anyone who wants to rent.

esoterica 7y ago

If you tax rent, landlords will pass the tax on to renters. All you are doing is making renting more unaffordable.

whymsicalburito 7y ago
But buying will be cheaper than renting, so it seems just fine that rents would go up.
- esoterica 7y ago
  A lot of people cannot afford to buy at any price point.
hokus 7y ago
yes, to the point that [say] 10% of the rentals are empty.