6 ms·

>Citation needed. Here ya go (he has further citations at the bottom if you're really interested): https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians

by atr_gz 7y ago

>Citation needed. Here ya go (he has further citations at the bottom if you're really interested): https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/6vybgc/in_the_years_leading_up_to_britains_handover_of/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/... Regardless of whose fault it is, it doesn't have any bearing on whether or not the people of HK should have self-determination. >It is also nearly impossible to learn anything about the opium wars in Western media, or how the governors of HK are all appointed by the British monarch directly. I don't know about that, I learned about it in high school. Here's a more recent book and review about it: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/07/02/books/review/stephen-r-platt-imperial-twilight.amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/07/02/book... >Then what is this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democra.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democra.... >BTW he/she said "largely encouraged". So the existence of the NED proves to you that a large portion of the protestors in Hong Kong are foreign-influenced? Okay. Personally, I think it's more likely that they're concerned about their rights and it's insulting to say otherwise.

confusedhnguy 7y ago
So, preventing HK from declaring independence is equivalent to blocking democracy? Straw man argument. > Regardless of whose fault it is God I wish I am from the West, I don't have do be responsible for the mess I created. Just say this sentence and I am invulnerable to accusations and should be trusted again. That's one link about the opium wars, it is completely unhelpful to resolve the issues created by the massive amounts of news that do not talk about the opium wars when they talk about HK. If more people know what happened during the opium wars, the it will not be so hard to understand that HK should be returned with no strings attached, and the one country two systems policy is already a big step back from the Chinese government that takes the welfare of the people of HK into account. About your last point, I don't plan to convince you. If you think the West is innocent after you see what a mess this world is, good for you. But please bear in mind that this is also insulting to the countless people who suffered in other parts of the world. People didn't just wake up and decide to dislike you.
- atr_gz 7y ago
  Wow, you only read the thread title of the first link I gave you. Obviously you aren't interested in learning anything. If you change your mind, read a little further. You claimed that it's impossible to read about the Opium Wars in Western media, I say I learned about it in high school history and give you one of thousands upon thousands of links about it that will come up when you search. I never claimed the West was innocent, nor that they should be forgiven about anything. You're just adding all that stuff in to further muddle the discussion when you've been proven wrong. I hope you learn to challenge your own beliefs, because after your comments I don't think it's a good use of my time to continue discussing things with you.
  - confusedhnguy 7y ago
    OK I admit that I didn't read the whole thing. So I go back and read every single line of that link. OK, the Provisional Legislative Council was questionable in your view, I understand. But how exactly does this proves that the Chinese government blocked the democracy for 60 years? How about the existence of LegCo? Also I still don't think we agree on what the word "return" means. Yes there are thousands of links that talk about the opium wars, and you have learned about it in school, but that doesn't help because the news don't talk about it. If you decide to include every wrong doings of the CCP when you talk about HK, it is dishonest to exclude the UK's dirty history. I would also ask you to challenge your beliefs about why some parts of the world is unstable. I do not have proofs about whether there is someone behind this event in HK, but the protesters also have no proof that this bill is going to make HK a 1984-like society. China is a country surrounded by enemies, it isn't a bad thing to be paranoid, especially when people are clearly overreacting. https://www.investigaction.net/en/trojan-horses-and-color-revolutions-the-role-of-the-national-endowment-for-democracy-ned/ https://www.investigaction.net/en/trojan-horses-and-color-re...
    - atr_gz 7y ago
      Okay, maybe you're more reasonable than it seemed at first. I understand some paranoia about foreign opinions. But, how often does the news need to talk about the Opium Wars? I would say there are plenty of long-form articles talking about it, but does every article about Hong Kong need to give century-old context? It's brought up in Chinese media far more often because it's useful for the CCP to remind people. It helps keep them in power and feeds their narrative that China must never be seen as weak again. And while I personally don't think excessive nationalistic propaganda is a good thing, it's at least understandable. However, my point is that this part of history being brought up more often in Chinese media doesn't mean it's the natural state of things, or that it should be brought up more often in Western media. No one reasonable thinks the British or other foreign powers involved did the right thing there. You claimed straw-man really easily before. Don't you think saying that HKers think this one bill will turn HK into a 1984-like society is a bit of a straw-man? I think most of them might say that the problem is not one bill, but more of a slippery slope type thing. Give an inch, give a mile. What beliefs do I have about why parts of the world are unstable? I don't think I've expressed any, so you must be making an assumption there. And actually, if you ask around, I don't think you'll find many westerners who think colonialism was a good thing, although I'm sure there are some. Finally, about the British wanting Hong Kong to be democratic. After further reading, 60 years might not be right. There was a plan in the 40s and 50s for democracy, but it sounds like it was the British governor of the time who blocked it for unclear reasons. I don't know if there were other attempts before the negotiations for the handover began. The 1980s are more accurate, so maybe about 20 years before Chinese rule. That said, I still think it can be assumed that the CCP opposed democracy in Hong Kong. If you want me to say Britain messed up with Hong Kong by not allowing democracy, then I can agree with that. And I'll certainly agree that Western colonialism was for the most part a terrible thing that made the world a worse place.
petre 7y ago
The foreign-infueced theme and "anarchists" are obvious responses from central power using force when a large protest happens. They will never admit that they are the ones who created the problem in the first place.
throwaway44327 7y ago
Throwaway because I don’t want to be brigaded. It appears Britain only tried to give them democracy when they knew the writing was on the wall. That seems disingenuous to suggest it was China that blocked them. While technically true, if Britain truly wanted to help the Hong King people, they would have offered citizenship and let them immigrate, like Portugal did for Macau. Instead, the British tried to stop Portugal from doing so, because they didn’t want to offer the people of Hong Kong citizenship.
- atr_gz 7y ago
  Interesting. I can promise you I'm not being disingenuous, even if I'm wrong. And I think "brigading" is more of a Reddit thing - it usually means when people from an opposing subreddit mass downvote a post. I definitely think Britain should have offered citizenship. I'm surprised they didn't want to.

by atr_gz 7y ago

confusedhnguy 7y ago

So, preventing HK from declaring independence is equivalent to blocking democracy? Straw man argument. > Regardless of whose fault it is God I wish I am from the West, I don't have do be responsible for the mess I created. Just say this sentence and I am invulnerable to accusations and should be trusted again. That's one link about the opium wars, it is completely unhelpful to resolve the issues created by the massive amounts of news that do not talk about the opium wars when they talk about HK. If more people know what happened during the opium wars, the it will not be so hard to understand that HK should be returned with no strings attached, and the one country two systems policy is already a big step back from the Chinese government that takes the welfare of the people of HK into account. About your last point, I don't plan to convince you. If you think the West is innocent after you see what a mess this world is, good for you. But please bear in mind that this is also insulting to the countless people who suffered in other parts of the world. People didn't just wake up and decide to dislike you.

atr_gz 7y ago
Wow, you only read the thread title of the first link I gave you. Obviously you aren't interested in learning anything. If you change your mind, read a little further. You claimed that it's impossible to read about the Opium Wars in Western media, I say I learned about it in high school history and give you one of thousands upon thousands of links about it that will come up when you search. I never claimed the West was innocent, nor that they should be forgiven about anything. You're just adding all that stuff in to further muddle the discussion when you've been proven wrong. I hope you learn to challenge your own beliefs, because after your comments I don't think it's a good use of my time to continue discussing things with you.
- confusedhnguy 7y ago
  OK I admit that I didn't read the whole thing. So I go back and read every single line of that link. OK, the Provisional Legislative Council was questionable in your view, I understand. But how exactly does this proves that the Chinese government blocked the democracy for 60 years? How about the existence of LegCo? Also I still don't think we agree on what the word "return" means. Yes there are thousands of links that talk about the opium wars, and you have learned about it in school, but that doesn't help because the news don't talk about it. If you decide to include every wrong doings of the CCP when you talk about HK, it is dishonest to exclude the UK's dirty history. I would also ask you to challenge your beliefs about why some parts of the world is unstable. I do not have proofs about whether there is someone behind this event in HK, but the protesters also have no proof that this bill is going to make HK a 1984-like society. China is a country surrounded by enemies, it isn't a bad thing to be paranoid, especially when people are clearly overreacting. https://www.investigaction.net/en/trojan-horses-and-color-revolutions-the-role-of-the-national-endowment-for-democracy-ned/ https://www.investigaction.net/en/trojan-horses-and-color-re...
  - atr_gz 7y ago
    Okay, maybe you're more reasonable than it seemed at first. I understand some paranoia about foreign opinions. But, how often does the news need to talk about the Opium Wars? I would say there are plenty of long-form articles talking about it, but does every article about Hong Kong need to give century-old context? It's brought up in Chinese media far more often because it's useful for the CCP to remind people. It helps keep them in power and feeds their narrative that China must never be seen as weak again. And while I personally don't think excessive nationalistic propaganda is a good thing, it's at least understandable. However, my point is that this part of history being brought up more often in Chinese media doesn't mean it's the natural state of things, or that it should be brought up more often in Western media. No one reasonable thinks the British or other foreign powers involved did the right thing there. You claimed straw-man really easily before. Don't you think saying that HKers think this one bill will turn HK into a 1984-like society is a bit of a straw-man? I think most of them might say that the problem is not one bill, but more of a slippery slope type thing. Give an inch, give a mile. What beliefs do I have about why parts of the world are unstable? I don't think I've expressed any, so you must be making an assumption there. And actually, if you ask around, I don't think you'll find many westerners who think colonialism was a good thing, although I'm sure there are some. Finally, about the British wanting Hong Kong to be democratic. After further reading, 60 years might not be right. There was a plan in the 40s and 50s for democracy, but it sounds like it was the British governor of the time who blocked it for unclear reasons. I don't know if there were other attempts before the negotiations for the handover began. The 1980s are more accurate, so maybe about 20 years before Chinese rule. That said, I still think it can be assumed that the CCP opposed democracy in Hong Kong. If you want me to say Britain messed up with Hong Kong by not allowing democracy, then I can agree with that. And I'll certainly agree that Western colonialism was for the most part a terrible thing that made the world a worse place.

petre 7y ago

The foreign-infueced theme and "anarchists" are obvious responses from central power using force when a large protest happens. They will never admit that they are the ones who created the problem in the first place.

throwaway44327 7y ago

Throwaway because I don’t want to be brigaded. It appears Britain only tried to give them democracy when they knew the writing was on the wall. That seems disingenuous to suggest it was China that blocked them. While technically true, if Britain truly wanted to help the Hong King people, they would have offered citizenship and let them immigrate, like Portugal did for Macau. Instead, the British tried to stop Portugal from doing so, because they didn’t want to offer the people of Hong Kong citizenship.

atr_gz 7y ago
Interesting. I can promise you I'm not being disingenuous, even if I'm wrong. And I think "brigading" is more of a Reddit thing - it usually means when people from an opposing subreddit mass downvote a post. I definitely think Britain should have offered citizenship. I'm surprised they didn't want to.