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This is great to see, but also really frustrating. I see Apple pushing to make iPadOS feel more 'real computer', but these sorts of basic Unixy workflows still

This is great to see, but also really frustrating. I see Apple pushing to make iPadOS feel more 'real computer', but these sorts of basic Unixy workflows still feel very hacky, particularly when it comes time to save things to the 'File system', as it were. I look forward to a day when I can someday actually use things like XeLaTeX and Pandoc on an iPad to accomplish my actual work, but for now, I'm finding myself editing Markdown and TeX now, and compiling later. Not great, but good enough. I've often wondered whether Apple could do well by doing something similar to Crostini on ChromeOS, to allow these things to actually work as intended, but without impacting security. But that also probably doesn't sell software as effectively, as free software doesn't pay Apple's cut.

macintux 7y ago
Apple doesn’t care about minuscule lost revenue because some people would want to run containers of free software. Drop in the bucket.
- _ph_ 7y ago
  The number of iPads bought by those users might be just a drop in the bucket, but that is too shortsighted to look at those users. Those users are the ones who might push development of more advanced apps on the iPad, be it as developers themselves or because they would attract new app development to the iPad. Engineers and scientists might be a small market, but I think it was vital for OS X, that early on Apple laptops started to appear at conferences, slowly growing in share.
  - macintux 7y ago
    I said the lost revenue if the feature were offered wasn’t important. I didn’t say anything about the value of the users.
    - _ph_ 7y ago
      But you cannot reasonably look at the one without considering the other.
      - macintux 7y ago
        Clearly I’m not explaining myself well. The point I objected to comes at the end of this quote: > I've often wondered whether Apple could do well by doing something similar to Crostini on ChromeOS, to allow these things to actually work as intended, but without impacting security. But that also probably doesn't sell software as effectively, as free software doesn't pay Apple's cut. The implication is that Apple wouldn’t develop such a feature because it might cut into their profits. I don’t buy that reasoning: Apple wouldn’t lose much if any money by offering that. Update: and I also don’t believe that Apple would deprioritize it because would cost them some money. Far more likely they’d decide it isn’t sufficiently useful, or would cause other problems, be too confusing, etc.
- jakobegger 7y ago
  If those users are so unimportant, why did Apple bother to introduce the Hypervisor framework on macOS? If there's a big, important market for virtualisation on macOS, surely it would be worthwhile to also address that market on iPadOS? Especially since Apple is trying hard to convince all kinds of professional users to adopt the iPad.
  - yoz-y 7y ago
    I think Apple has a different vision for needs of people who use Macs and iPads for work. For example the new Sidecar feature (use iPad as a screen) supports the pencil but not touch. Apple believes that touch on macOS interface is not a good experience. I suppose that they feel that text entry and chaining CLI tools on iPad is not one either.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    Apple has been trying to pull people away from writing kernel extensions for a while, so I don't see why the introduction of Hypervisor.framework (and with it, another user-space way to do something which previously required working in the kernel) is noteworthy as anything other than this.
  - macintux 7y ago
    I said the lost revenue if the feature were offered wasn’t important. I didn’t say anything about the value of the users.
tuananh 7y ago
The file manager improves but not by a lot. I think iPadOS is only usable as an actual computer when they finally make the Terminal app on iPad and a much better File app
- valec 7y ago
  in the meantime you can take matters into your own hands and jailbreak if possible
  - raxxorrax 7y ago
    But why not use some of those fancy tablet devices that aren't locked in the first place? Much more options here. Sure, Apple hardware is good, but there are alternatives. Not suggesting to switch to chrome OS or android here.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  So all Macs up to OS X weren't usable it seems.
  - _ph_ 7y ago
    While I never used a Mac before OS X, they probably were quite usable, and your question was both rethorical and snarky. There is more than one way to use a "computer". Incidentally, I only switched to the Mac after they added a shell to it with the switch to OS X. And one of the reasons I disliked Windows was the crummy shell and lack of a terminal. Also, it is 2019 and it is no problem to get a full Linux installation on a smartphone, while Apple sets up artificial limitations to prevent that. There are certainly other ways to make the iPad a computing device - like the Macs before OS X, but Apple steps into the way of that in many places too. An app like Termux would not only make a lot of potential users happy, it would be something which could provide this in a way which could be nicely sandboxed in the iPadOS/iOS.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      Naturally it was snarky, because having a CLI to be an usable computer is not something that one can generalize and largely proven in the market that consumers don't give a damn about it. Which phone is sold with a full Linux distribution, with any kind of market relevance? Android certainly not, as regular Linux APIs aren't part of the NDK stable API list, which Termux actually needs to work within the constraints of ISO C, ISO C++ and NDK APIs.
kccqzy 7y ago
They could very well steal the WSL idea from Microsoft and make something similar. Currently there is iSH which runs certain Linux utilities unmodified, but I'd love to see first-party support.
- legulere 7y ago
  A shell based on [WASI] would be a pretty cool option to provide [WASI]: https://github.com/WebAssembly/WASI https://github.com/WebAssembly/WASI
Angostura 7y ago
It may be worth noting here that iOS 13 adds support for external USB sticks and network Samba shares to the Files app.

macintux 7y ago

Apple doesn’t care about minuscule lost revenue because some people would want to run containers of free software. Drop in the bucket.

_ph_ 7y ago
The number of iPads bought by those users might be just a drop in the bucket, but that is too shortsighted to look at those users. Those users are the ones who might push development of more advanced apps on the iPad, be it as developers themselves or because they would attract new app development to the iPad. Engineers and scientists might be a small market, but I think it was vital for OS X, that early on Apple laptops started to appear at conferences, slowly growing in share.
- macintux 7y ago
  I said the lost revenue if the feature were offered wasn’t important. I didn’t say anything about the value of the users.
  - _ph_ 7y ago
    But you cannot reasonably look at the one without considering the other.
    - macintux 7y ago
      Clearly I’m not explaining myself well. The point I objected to comes at the end of this quote: > I've often wondered whether Apple could do well by doing something similar to Crostini on ChromeOS, to allow these things to actually work as intended, but without impacting security. But that also probably doesn't sell software as effectively, as free software doesn't pay Apple's cut. The implication is that Apple wouldn’t develop such a feature because it might cut into their profits. I don’t buy that reasoning: Apple wouldn’t lose much if any money by offering that. Update: and I also don’t believe that Apple would deprioritize it because would cost them some money. Far more likely they’d decide it isn’t sufficiently useful, or would cause other problems, be too confusing, etc.
jakobegger 7y ago
If those users are so unimportant, why did Apple bother to introduce the Hypervisor framework on macOS? If there's a big, important market for virtualisation on macOS, surely it would be worthwhile to also address that market on iPadOS? Especially since Apple is trying hard to convince all kinds of professional users to adopt the iPad.
- yoz-y 7y ago
  I think Apple has a different vision for needs of people who use Macs and iPads for work. For example the new Sidecar feature (use iPad as a screen) supports the pencil but not touch. Apple believes that touch on macOS interface is not a good experience. I suppose that they feel that text entry and chaining CLI tools on iPad is not one either.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Apple has been trying to pull people away from writing kernel extensions for a while, so I don't see why the introduction of Hypervisor.framework (and with it, another user-space way to do something which previously required working in the kernel) is noteworthy as anything other than this.
- macintux 7y ago
  I said the lost revenue if the feature were offered wasn’t important. I didn’t say anything about the value of the users.

tuananh 7y ago

The file manager improves but not by a lot. I think iPadOS is only usable as an actual computer when they finally make the Terminal app on iPad and a much better File app

valec 7y ago
in the meantime you can take matters into your own hands and jailbreak if possible
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  But why not use some of those fancy tablet devices that aren't locked in the first place? Much more options here. Sure, Apple hardware is good, but there are alternatives. Not suggesting to switch to chrome OS or android here.
pjmlp 7y ago
So all Macs up to OS X weren't usable it seems.
- _ph_ 7y ago
  While I never used a Mac before OS X, they probably were quite usable, and your question was both rethorical and snarky. There is more than one way to use a "computer". Incidentally, I only switched to the Mac after they added a shell to it with the switch to OS X. And one of the reasons I disliked Windows was the crummy shell and lack of a terminal. Also, it is 2019 and it is no problem to get a full Linux installation on a smartphone, while Apple sets up artificial limitations to prevent that. There are certainly other ways to make the iPad a computing device - like the Macs before OS X, but Apple steps into the way of that in many places too. An app like Termux would not only make a lot of potential users happy, it would be something which could provide this in a way which could be nicely sandboxed in the iPadOS/iOS.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    Naturally it was snarky, because having a CLI to be an usable computer is not something that one can generalize and largely proven in the market that consumers don't give a damn about it. Which phone is sold with a full Linux distribution, with any kind of market relevance? Android certainly not, as regular Linux APIs aren't part of the NDK stable API list, which Termux actually needs to work within the constraints of ISO C, ISO C++ and NDK APIs.

kccqzy 7y ago

They could very well steal the WSL idea from Microsoft and make something similar. Currently there is iSH which runs certain Linux utilities unmodified, but I'd love to see first-party support.

legulere 7y ago
A shell based on [WASI] would be a pretty cool option to provide [WASI]: https://github.com/WebAssembly/WASI https://github.com/WebAssembly/WASI

Angostura 7y ago

It may be worth noting here that iOS 13 adds support for external USB sticks and network Samba shares to the Files app.