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My American girlfriend's immediate response: seems militaristic and violent. My daughter was turned off from robotics at a young age. She joined firstego leagu

My American girlfriend's immediate response: seems militaristic and violent. My daughter was turned off from robotics at a young age. She joined firstego league and there was a ton of domineering "boy energy" in her school. She enjoyed creating and personalizing the robots in unique ways, the boys wanted "to win". This is what happens when you have a bunch of dudes designing educational robot toys.

dgzl 7y ago
I'm curious, since you know your daughter's personality (and those of little girls in general) better than I do, how would the game be designed such that they'd be more interested? Keep in mind this is coming from a company known for making high quality drones.
- Mauronic1 7y ago
  I am not informed enough to even guess. Was it the first robotics ciricculum or the gender dynamics of the class? Or both? That was 7 years ago, now she is in an all girls high school. The same sex education has provided a much less distracting environment. (Don't want to get off topic but I could go on and on about same sex education)
  - dgzl 7y ago
    So you have enough intuition to criticize this drone toy as being "designed by dudes" and not palatable for girls, but have zero intuition about how the game can be changed so your own daughter would enjoy it better? Do you realize how unhelpful that is? From your own words, it sounds like your daughter enjoys being aesthetically creative rather than technically competitive. In which case, why are you bitter about a drone company being a drone company?
    - Mauronic1 7y ago
      It's not intuition. The product team was lead by a man (see the Bloomberg video). The CEO of DJI is man, every senior exec is a man and 98% of all the DJI reps that I have met at trade shows since 2014 have been men. It's true that I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about how to solve the problem. But it annoys me when a billion dollar company doesn't seem to either.
      - dgzl 7y ago
        > But it annoys me when a billion dollar company doesn't seem to either. It is literally not their responsibility, nor should it be. If girls aren't interested in battling or racing or "winning", then giving them competitive battling and racing games might not be a good choice.
akerl_ 7y ago
I’m more concerned by the idea that wanting “to win” is “boy energy”. Why should we persist the idea that wanting to win is a boy thing, and wanting to create/personalize is (as implied by your comment) a girl thing?
- cbg0 7y ago
  > Why should we persist the idea that wanting to win is a boy thing Because it most often is, boys typically like to compete more than girls do. I'm not going to quote studies on this, just basing this on my experience growing up and now as an adult being around small kids.
  - akerl_ 7y ago
    This speaks to society’s role in conditioning men to be aggressive and women to be passive, which was exactly what I said I was concerned with. Unless you’re making the case that absent cultural conditioning, women are biologically less interested in “winning” than men?
    - reitanqild 7y ago
      Does society do this to apes as well? Reindeer? Etc? Study history and biology and I think you'll probably find that society used to accept nature but today it is trying to romantizise nature and blame it on culture, while the opposite is more true.
    - lm28469 7y ago
      Ew, I can't for the life of me understand this "everything is a social construct" mindset. The average man is biologically different than the average female. Testosterone alone can explain why men are generally more violent and sexually aggressive than women. And there are many many many other factors in effect. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3693622/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3693622/ Why do people get angry about facts, there is no value judgment in saying "The average women is inclined to do X while the average man is more inclined to do Y", it doesn't mean "every woman HAS to do X and every man HAS to do Y". Why would every animals of different sex present different behaviours but somehow humans are all 100% equal and every difference is due to "society" ? Is biology a social construct now ?
langitbiru 7y ago
You are posing an interesting assumption. Your premise is girls and boys are "biologically" different in this robotics context. Your words: "the boys wanted 'to win'", "She enjoyed creating and personalizing the robots". If we accept your premise to be true, then we must cater to the girls so robotics can be more inclusive. Again your words: "creating and personalizing the robots in unique ways". Maybe DJI can provide robotics which is less violent, catered for girls. I don't know, maybe something like Baymax, or Wall-E. The other side of coin is we reject your premise. Boys and girls have no differences. Boys want to win. Girls want to win also. If this alternative premise is true, then either we must push the girls to be more aggressive (want to win) or discourage the boys who are aggressive (want to win). I am interested in other people's opinion about this. No, I don't have answer for this question.
- gatherhunterer 7y ago
  The differences could be due to environmental influence or a number of other factors. You are reaching to establish a wider gender narrative. Children have different interests for a wide variety of reasons not the least of which is role modeling and social pressure. Anecdotal evidence is not a reliable basis for conclusion-drawing, especially when the anecdotes occur within a similar cultural context. You are trying to find ground for an assumption based on little to no information. Let people be people and stop with the armchair sociology.
  - langitbiru 7y ago
    Okay, I am trying to have a conversation here. So according to you, the situation of boys like "more military and violent" type robotic toys and girls like "more creative" type robotics toys, could be caused by social construct (role modeling and social pressure). In that case, what should we do as society? Should we let this social construct be because it is harmless? Should we uproot this social construct as society because this construct is harmful for children? The second question is what do you mean by "let people be people" in the parent's context? Should DJI produce another kind of robotics toys (which is less violent)? Or if a kid who happens to be a girl and does not like "violent" robotics toys should accept the situation and just find another toy? Or she should learn to love "violent" robotics toys?
bubblewrap 7y ago
Get your daughter a different toy, then, and let the boys enjoy their battles.
- Mauronic1 7y ago
  Are you feeling threatened? I was just sharing some female perspectives. If this wasn't so expensive, I'd buy 2 for myself. As a parent, I don't think there's a need to teach the next generation ok kids about AI in the context of autonomous killing machines...
  - bubblewrap 7y ago
    Sure, yes, I feel threatened - because it is visible in many educational institutions that the only focus is on somehow getting girls into STEM. The boys are on their own, it is assumed that they will be interested in STEM anyway. Which isn't even the case. More boys than girls go into STEM, but many boys don't go into STEM or much of anything, really (less men than women complete higher education these days). I have a son and a daughter, and I don't like that approach for either of them. I think if boys or girls are having fun, that should be encouraged and used as a motivator. If "killing machines" is what motivates the boys to program robots, so be it. Although I don't think this toy robot can actually kill anything, so that is just hyperbole. And presumably it goes further - will I be blamed if I give my son a water pistol, because I encourage his toxic masculinity? Where does it stop?
    - dgzl 7y ago
      It doesn't. This is all because there's a lack of women in STEM, and people trying to find out why. If we can conclude that it's society's fault (nature/nurture) women don't like STEM, then we can change society until women are interested. If the reality is that women are uninterested in STEM from a biological standpoint, then it's harder to manipulate to get women interested. The people who are most concerned with this problem are really fighting the idea that any of this is biologically responsible.
      - 7y ago

dgzl 7y ago

I'm curious, since you know your daughter's personality (and those of little girls in general) better than I do, how would the game be designed such that they'd be more interested? Keep in mind this is coming from a company known for making high quality drones.

Mauronic1 7y ago
I am not informed enough to even guess. Was it the first robotics ciricculum or the gender dynamics of the class? Or both? That was 7 years ago, now she is in an all girls high school. The same sex education has provided a much less distracting environment. (Don't want to get off topic but I could go on and on about same sex education)
- dgzl 7y ago
  So you have enough intuition to criticize this drone toy as being "designed by dudes" and not palatable for girls, but have zero intuition about how the game can be changed so your own daughter would enjoy it better? Do you realize how unhelpful that is? From your own words, it sounds like your daughter enjoys being aesthetically creative rather than technically competitive. In which case, why are you bitter about a drone company being a drone company?
  - Mauronic1 7y ago
    It's not intuition. The product team was lead by a man (see the Bloomberg video). The CEO of DJI is man, every senior exec is a man and 98% of all the DJI reps that I have met at trade shows since 2014 have been men. It's true that I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about how to solve the problem. But it annoys me when a billion dollar company doesn't seem to either.
    - dgzl 7y ago
      > But it annoys me when a billion dollar company doesn't seem to either. It is literally not their responsibility, nor should it be. If girls aren't interested in battling or racing or "winning", then giving them competitive battling and racing games might not be a good choice.

akerl_ 7y ago

I’m more concerned by the idea that wanting “to win” is “boy energy”. Why should we persist the idea that wanting to win is a boy thing, and wanting to create/personalize is (as implied by your comment) a girl thing?

cbg0 7y ago
> Why should we persist the idea that wanting to win is a boy thing Because it most often is, boys typically like to compete more than girls do. I'm not going to quote studies on this, just basing this on my experience growing up and now as an adult being around small kids.
- akerl_ 7y ago
  This speaks to society’s role in conditioning men to be aggressive and women to be passive, which was exactly what I said I was concerned with. Unless you’re making the case that absent cultural conditioning, women are biologically less interested in “winning” than men?
  - reitanqild 7y ago
    Does society do this to apes as well? Reindeer? Etc? Study history and biology and I think you'll probably find that society used to accept nature but today it is trying to romantizise nature and blame it on culture, while the opposite is more true.
  - lm28469 7y ago
    Ew, I can't for the life of me understand this "everything is a social construct" mindset. The average man is biologically different than the average female. Testosterone alone can explain why men are generally more violent and sexually aggressive than women. And there are many many many other factors in effect. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3693622/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3693622/ Why do people get angry about facts, there is no value judgment in saying "The average women is inclined to do X while the average man is more inclined to do Y", it doesn't mean "every woman HAS to do X and every man HAS to do Y". Why would every animals of different sex present different behaviours but somehow humans are all 100% equal and every difference is due to "society" ? Is biology a social construct now ?

langitbiru 7y ago

You are posing an interesting assumption. Your premise is girls and boys are "biologically" different in this robotics context. Your words: "the boys wanted 'to win'", "She enjoyed creating and personalizing the robots". If we accept your premise to be true, then we must cater to the girls so robotics can be more inclusive. Again your words: "creating and personalizing the robots in unique ways". Maybe DJI can provide robotics which is less violent, catered for girls. I don't know, maybe something like Baymax, or Wall-E. The other side of coin is we reject your premise. Boys and girls have no differences. Boys want to win. Girls want to win also. If this alternative premise is true, then either we must push the girls to be more aggressive (want to win) or discourage the boys who are aggressive (want to win). I am interested in other people's opinion about this. No, I don't have answer for this question.

gatherhunterer 7y ago
The differences could be due to environmental influence or a number of other factors. You are reaching to establish a wider gender narrative. Children have different interests for a wide variety of reasons not the least of which is role modeling and social pressure. Anecdotal evidence is not a reliable basis for conclusion-drawing, especially when the anecdotes occur within a similar cultural context. You are trying to find ground for an assumption based on little to no information. Let people be people and stop with the armchair sociology.
- langitbiru 7y ago
  Okay, I am trying to have a conversation here. So according to you, the situation of boys like "more military and violent" type robotic toys and girls like "more creative" type robotics toys, could be caused by social construct (role modeling and social pressure). In that case, what should we do as society? Should we let this social construct be because it is harmless? Should we uproot this social construct as society because this construct is harmful for children? The second question is what do you mean by "let people be people" in the parent's context? Should DJI produce another kind of robotics toys (which is less violent)? Or if a kid who happens to be a girl and does not like "violent" robotics toys should accept the situation and just find another toy? Or she should learn to love "violent" robotics toys?

bubblewrap 7y ago

Get your daughter a different toy, then, and let the boys enjoy their battles.

Mauronic1 7y ago
Are you feeling threatened? I was just sharing some female perspectives. If this wasn't so expensive, I'd buy 2 for myself. As a parent, I don't think there's a need to teach the next generation ok kids about AI in the context of autonomous killing machines...
- bubblewrap 7y ago
  Sure, yes, I feel threatened - because it is visible in many educational institutions that the only focus is on somehow getting girls into STEM. The boys are on their own, it is assumed that they will be interested in STEM anyway. Which isn't even the case. More boys than girls go into STEM, but many boys don't go into STEM or much of anything, really (less men than women complete higher education these days). I have a son and a daughter, and I don't like that approach for either of them. I think if boys or girls are having fun, that should be encouraged and used as a motivator. If "killing machines" is what motivates the boys to program robots, so be it. Although I don't think this toy robot can actually kill anything, so that is just hyperbole. And presumably it goes further - will I be blamed if I give my son a water pistol, because I encourage his toxic masculinity? Where does it stop?
  - dgzl 7y ago
    It doesn't. This is all because there's a lack of women in STEM, and people trying to find out why. If we can conclude that it's society's fault (nature/nurture) women don't like STEM, then we can change society until women are interested. If the reality is that women are uninterested in STEM from a biological standpoint, then it's harder to manipulate to get women interested. The people who are most concerned with this problem are really fighting the idea that any of this is biologically responsible.
    - 7y ago