5 ms·

There are still some developers who work on microcontrollers and the like. Also a lot of the embedded world still has MMUs and caches but there's not a whole

There are still some developers who work on microcontrollers and the like. Also a lot of the embedded world still has MMUs and caches but there's not a whole lot of software between you and hardware.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
I have a few problems with that, though. For one, I don't really care about the vast majority of projects that kind of stuff is used for, and for another they often have closed proprietary toolchains.
- ab71e5 7y ago
  Really? Because it's used in so many fields there should be something interesting there one would think. Of the top of my head: Defense, agriculture, home automation, industrial automation, finance, automotive, oil&gas, space resarch, robotics. The list goes on! I think the proprietary toolchain stuff is also changing, but slowly.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
    > Defense, Ethically dubious, and I don't care about making money. > agriculture, I don't care about making money and I doubt there are not already much better solutions by people who, for instance, actually know something about agriculture. > home automation, Needless overengineering masturbation as far as I'm concerned. > industrial automation, finance, automotive, oil&gas, space resarch, robotics See above re: money, and products already made by people who know shit. Personal computing is what interests me, and most people doing personal projects with this stuff are making overengineered light blinkers or garage door openers or some other nonsense.
- monocasa 7y ago
  As long as you get something with an ARM, you don't have to worry about a proprietary toolchain.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
    ARM itself is proprietary though, and also I'm not sure there are ARMs as simple as I'm describing.
    - monocasa 7y ago
      I mean, everything is propeitary then. Even SiFive has issues publishing their preboot code. https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=5127 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=5127 And a ARM CortexM0 is about 12k gates, it's hard to get much simpler than that.
      - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
        > I mean, everything is propeitary then. Yeah, that's precisely the problem. Though you're right, the M0 at least does fit what I'm talking about pretty well, in-order, no-MMU, etc.
        monocasa 7y ago
        So what, you just don't code for hardware at all?
        AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
        If I'm going to use technology with several orders of magnitude less power, then I'd at least like it to be open, is all I'm saying.
    - pjc50 7y ago
      All the retro platforms were proprietary, though? Can't get much more proprietary than Nintendo. Cortex-M0 is very comparable to a 68k with 32-bit registers. http://infocenter.arm.com/help/index.jsp?topic=/com.arm.doc.ddi0432c/CHDCICDF.html http://infocenter.arm.com/help/index.jsp?topic=/com.arm.doc....
      - 7y ago
- photojosh 7y ago
  If nonproprietary is #1 issue for you, you could design your own CPU or emulate an existing one using a hardware design language and FPGA. Although there's no way past proprietary chips, at least the open-source toolchains for them are coming along.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
    > Although there's no way past proprietary chips Yeah, see, that's a hold up for me. If I'm going to go through the effort of building something completely non-commercially viable than I want it to at least be completely open. And before you say anything, no, I'm not at all interested in making anything commercially viable.

There are still some developers who work on microcontrollers and the like. Also a lot of the embedded world still has MMUs and caches but there's not a whole lot of software between you and hardware.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago

I have a few problems with that, though. For one, I don't really care about the vast majority of projects that kind of stuff is used for, and for another they often have closed proprietary toolchains.

ab71e5 7y ago
Really? Because it's used in so many fields there should be something interesting there one would think. Of the top of my head: Defense, agriculture, home automation, industrial automation, finance, automotive, oil&gas, space resarch, robotics. The list goes on! I think the proprietary toolchain stuff is also changing, but slowly.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  > Defense, Ethically dubious, and I don't care about making money. > agriculture, I don't care about making money and I doubt there are not already much better solutions by people who, for instance, actually know something about agriculture. > home automation, Needless overengineering masturbation as far as I'm concerned. > industrial automation, finance, automotive, oil&gas, space resarch, robotics See above re: money, and products already made by people who know shit. Personal computing is what interests me, and most people doing personal projects with this stuff are making overengineered light blinkers or garage door openers or some other nonsense.
monocasa 7y ago
As long as you get something with an ARM, you don't have to worry about a proprietary toolchain.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  ARM itself is proprietary though, and also I'm not sure there are ARMs as simple as I'm describing.
  - monocasa 7y ago
    I mean, everything is propeitary then. Even SiFive has issues publishing their preboot code. https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=5127 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=5127 And a ARM CortexM0 is about 12k gates, it's hard to get much simpler than that.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
      > I mean, everything is propeitary then. Yeah, that's precisely the problem. Though you're right, the M0 at least does fit what I'm talking about pretty well, in-order, no-MMU, etc.
      - monocasa 7y ago
        So what, you just don't code for hardware at all?
        AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
        If I'm going to use technology with several orders of magnitude less power, then I'd at least like it to be open, is all I'm saying.
  - pjc50 7y ago
    All the retro platforms were proprietary, though? Can't get much more proprietary than Nintendo. Cortex-M0 is very comparable to a 68k with 32-bit registers. http://infocenter.arm.com/help/index.jsp?topic=/com.arm.doc.ddi0432c/CHDCICDF.html http://infocenter.arm.com/help/index.jsp?topic=/com.arm.doc....
    - 7y ago
photojosh 7y ago
If nonproprietary is #1 issue for you, you could design your own CPU or emulate an existing one using a hardware design language and FPGA. Although there's no way past proprietary chips, at least the open-source toolchains for them are coming along.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  > Although there's no way past proprietary chips Yeah, see, that's a hold up for me. If I'm going to go through the effort of building something completely non-commercially viable than I want it to at least be completely open. And before you say anything, no, I'm not at all interested in making anything commercially viable.