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Is it just an impression or is UK indeed the most enthusiastic of all Western countries when it comes to performing mass surveillance on its citizens? Seems li

Is it just an impression or is UK indeed the most enthusiastic of all Western countries when it comes to performing mass surveillance on its citizens? Seems like it runs way deeper and broader than in US

dvno42 7y ago
Opinion but I'm getting that impression, I was visiting Britain earlier this year and to gain entry to a sit down restaurant (Denny's type place), I was required to produce my passport or ID so that a copy could be scanned and saved before being granted entry (this was the norm for locals as well).
- voldacar 7y ago
  Christ that's unsettling
- andrewingram 7y ago
  Wait what? I’ve never come across this.
- dTal 7y ago
  That is not even remotely normal anywhere in the UK. Where was this?
- twic 7y ago
  That's certainly not normal. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if you had to do this to get into a restaurant somewhere slightly sensitive, such as at the top of a skyscraper. And i have been asked for ID - and patted down! - going to the bowling lanes in a slightly gangy part of town. But nobody's going to give you the third degree to get into a Nando's.
- tialaramex 7y ago
  Sounds like somebody pranked you. Most older Brits don't carry any sort of ID at all. Young people often need ID to buy booze, but when you're old enough that nobody could mistake you for under 25 they never bother you. Source: I've never carried ID, in my 40s this ceased ever causing any hassle because now nobody ever even asks.
- Silhouette 7y ago
  FYI, that's not even slightly normal for eating out in the UK. In my entire life, I have never been required to produce ID when eating out (other than perhaps a few times when I was younger and ordering alcohol, to prove that I was of legal age). In fact, such a policy would probably be catastrophic, because there was a big fight over whether we would all be required to carry compulsory ID cards here a few years ago, and for once the civil liberties side won after a big campaign.
- viraptor 7y ago
  You've possibly been scammed in some way. Watch out for weird things happening in your name. This is not normal and most likely not legal.
  - NullPrefix 7y ago
    How can you watch out for something like this?
    - viraptor 7y ago
      Free credit checks - make sure you didn't get an unknown credit card / loan / mortgage opened. You could also be cautious and report that passport as stolen, so it gets reissued with different numbers.
  - Mindwipe 7y ago
    There are plenty of nightclubs that do this, and police frequently mandate that they do so as a requirement of operating their alcohol license in the UK. It's completely legal. It would be very unusual for a restaurant to do so, but I'm wondering if it might have been a restaurant with a nightclub attached (if we're talking central London here maybe Tiger Tiger?). That's quite plausible.
    - viraptor 7y ago
      You have to show your ID for the alcohol venue sometimes - that's common. But I've never seen anyone actually scanning one to get a copy.
      - jdietrich 7y ago
        Some bars and nightclubs use ID scanners for verification purposes. A machine vision system is much better than a bouncer at spotting fake IDs or knowing what a Latvian driving license is supposed to look like. The scanner can also check names against a list of banned patrons, which may be shared between venues. https://www.patronscan.com/id-scanner-for-bars/ https://www.patronscan.com/id-scanner-for-bars/
- stordoff 7y ago
  This absolutely _isn't_ normal. I don't routinely carry ID, and never have done. The only place I can think of that did this was one nightclub near my university, but the upshot was we just didn't go to that nightclub often.
- Tsiklon 7y ago
  Plenty of bars in my local area of London have this set up unfortunately, usually they only turn them on after a certain point in the evening. I understand it's a requirement of their license. Most larger nightclubs in London will also do the same, I was very concerned when I first saw it.
- detritus 7y ago
  This is the second time I've read of this on HN and I've literally no idea what any of it is about. I can perhaps imagine this happening in some [crappy centre-town, tourist-trap] nightclubs, but literally not in a ‘Denny's type’ cafe restaurant. I can't even begin to imagine why, short of some scam or bored locals teasing tourists.
- zhte415 7y ago
  Given that almost nobody in the UK has any form of ID on them at any given time, and certainly nothing a restaurant can verify, it seems this as an entrance policy may be hurting the restaurant's business. Where was it? I've never been asked this. Did you consider reporting them to the police? If not, why not?
jrockway 7y ago
I think TfL just wants money. People won't pay for public transportation with increased taxes and whine loudly whenever fares are increased to cover the cost of the ride, so instead they track your movements with WiFi.
- Y_Y 7y ago
  But the Tube is already foolishly expensive, even by London standards. If you compare it with e.g. the BCN Metro the fares are typically about five times higher. The only thing to be said for TfL is that the passengers are generally very well behaved and never look at each other.
  - soylentgraham 7y ago
    I've always found this "TFL is expensive" thing odd, it's insanely cheap. (Speaking as someone who's lived in 5 countys) Have you ever gotten a bus ticket or taxi in derby? No day tickets. A return from a suburb to Center is around £8. Compared to say, Kentish Town west to Kew for £2.50. The TFL caps are great.
    - londons_explore 7y ago
      Compare the whole running cost, not just the ticket price. More than half comes from general taxation. Also compare to similarly sized cities. Transportation has a massive scaling benefit. If there are 1000 people on a tube train, charging £2.50 each, that's £2500. The drivers salary for the half hour journey could be perhaps £15. The train and track are going to have their costs spread out over 60 years or more. The land was in most cases given to them for free. The electricity for a 5 mile journey for a train costs £0.50. How else are they spending the remaining £2484.50? Answer:. Staff salaries are insanely high because of unions. Productivity is insanely low because of government work ethic and red tape. Tech is all contracted out an great expense, and all tech is both ancient and custom, stopping them buying in cheap systems from other countries. In some cases, trains are still controlled by men with big mechanical levers which raise flags!
kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
There's a whole book giving them an instruction manual.
Carpetsmoker 7y ago
My comment from yesterday applies here as well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19978973 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19978973 Specifically, I found the "distrustful of everyone to the point of paranoia"-part is really pervasive. I'm not trying to upset anyone here, but it's one of those things that's hard to notice unless you have a different perspective (e.g. you're a foreigners, have lived abroad, etc.) A lot of the British seem pretty okay with it shrug
- ownagefool 7y ago
  The further north you get, the friendlier people are, and the more distrust for Government there is. This however does also include cultural and sectarian divides, so the split isn't as simple as north/south. With that said, I'm Scottish and living near London and find this distasteful. But it's easier to configure a VPN then whine about it, so maybe we're just lazy?
londons_explore 7y ago
This is passive listening to unencrypted data. Anyone could do it. I actually commend them for announcing it. Most businesses just hire an 'analytics' company and end up getting all the same data from their customers without asking.

dvno42 7y ago

Opinion but I'm getting that impression, I was visiting Britain earlier this year and to gain entry to a sit down restaurant (Denny's type place), I was required to produce my passport or ID so that a copy could be scanned and saved before being granted entry (this was the norm for locals as well).

voldacar 7y ago
Christ that's unsettling
andrewingram 7y ago
Wait what? I’ve never come across this.
dTal 7y ago
That is not even remotely normal anywhere in the UK. Where was this?
twic 7y ago
That's certainly not normal. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if you had to do this to get into a restaurant somewhere slightly sensitive, such as at the top of a skyscraper. And i have been asked for ID - and patted down! - going to the bowling lanes in a slightly gangy part of town. But nobody's going to give you the third degree to get into a Nando's.
tialaramex 7y ago
Sounds like somebody pranked you. Most older Brits don't carry any sort of ID at all. Young people often need ID to buy booze, but when you're old enough that nobody could mistake you for under 25 they never bother you. Source: I've never carried ID, in my 40s this ceased ever causing any hassle because now nobody ever even asks.
Silhouette 7y ago
FYI, that's not even slightly normal for eating out in the UK. In my entire life, I have never been required to produce ID when eating out (other than perhaps a few times when I was younger and ordering alcohol, to prove that I was of legal age). In fact, such a policy would probably be catastrophic, because there was a big fight over whether we would all be required to carry compulsory ID cards here a few years ago, and for once the civil liberties side won after a big campaign.
viraptor 7y ago
You've possibly been scammed in some way. Watch out for weird things happening in your name. This is not normal and most likely not legal.
- NullPrefix 7y ago
  How can you watch out for something like this?
  - viraptor 7y ago
    Free credit checks - make sure you didn't get an unknown credit card / loan / mortgage opened. You could also be cautious and report that passport as stolen, so it gets reissued with different numbers.
- Mindwipe 7y ago
  There are plenty of nightclubs that do this, and police frequently mandate that they do so as a requirement of operating their alcohol license in the UK. It's completely legal. It would be very unusual for a restaurant to do so, but I'm wondering if it might have been a restaurant with a nightclub attached (if we're talking central London here maybe Tiger Tiger?). That's quite plausible.
  - viraptor 7y ago
    You have to show your ID for the alcohol venue sometimes - that's common. But I've never seen anyone actually scanning one to get a copy.
    - jdietrich 7y ago
      Some bars and nightclubs use ID scanners for verification purposes. A machine vision system is much better than a bouncer at spotting fake IDs or knowing what a Latvian driving license is supposed to look like. The scanner can also check names against a list of banned patrons, which may be shared between venues. https://www.patronscan.com/id-scanner-for-bars/ https://www.patronscan.com/id-scanner-for-bars/
stordoff 7y ago
This absolutely _isn't_ normal. I don't routinely carry ID, and never have done. The only place I can think of that did this was one nightclub near my university, but the upshot was we just didn't go to that nightclub often.
Tsiklon 7y ago
Plenty of bars in my local area of London have this set up unfortunately, usually they only turn them on after a certain point in the evening. I understand it's a requirement of their license. Most larger nightclubs in London will also do the same, I was very concerned when I first saw it.
detritus 7y ago
This is the second time I've read of this on HN and I've literally no idea what any of it is about. I can perhaps imagine this happening in some [crappy centre-town, tourist-trap] nightclubs, but literally not in a ‘Denny's type’ cafe restaurant. I can't even begin to imagine why, short of some scam or bored locals teasing tourists.
zhte415 7y ago
Given that almost nobody in the UK has any form of ID on them at any given time, and certainly nothing a restaurant can verify, it seems this as an entrance policy may be hurting the restaurant's business. Where was it? I've never been asked this. Did you consider reporting them to the police? If not, why not?

jrockway 7y ago

I think TfL just wants money. People won't pay for public transportation with increased taxes and whine loudly whenever fares are increased to cover the cost of the ride, so instead they track your movements with WiFi.

Y_Y 7y ago
But the Tube is already foolishly expensive, even by London standards. If you compare it with e.g. the BCN Metro the fares are typically about five times higher. The only thing to be said for TfL is that the passengers are generally very well behaved and never look at each other.
- soylentgraham 7y ago
  I've always found this "TFL is expensive" thing odd, it's insanely cheap. (Speaking as someone who's lived in 5 countys) Have you ever gotten a bus ticket or taxi in derby? No day tickets. A return from a suburb to Center is around £8. Compared to say, Kentish Town west to Kew for £2.50. The TFL caps are great.
  - londons_explore 7y ago
    Compare the whole running cost, not just the ticket price. More than half comes from general taxation. Also compare to similarly sized cities. Transportation has a massive scaling benefit. If there are 1000 people on a tube train, charging £2.50 each, that's £2500. The drivers salary for the half hour journey could be perhaps £15. The train and track are going to have their costs spread out over 60 years or more. The land was in most cases given to them for free. The electricity for a 5 mile journey for a train costs £0.50. How else are they spending the remaining £2484.50? Answer:. Staff salaries are insanely high because of unions. Productivity is insanely low because of government work ethic and red tape. Tech is all contracted out an great expense, and all tech is both ancient and custom, stopping them buying in cheap systems from other countries. In some cases, trains are still controlled by men with big mechanical levers which raise flags!

kevin_thibedeau 7y ago

There's a whole book giving them an instruction manual.

Carpetsmoker 7y ago

My comment from yesterday applies here as well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19978973 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19978973 Specifically, I found the "distrustful of everyone to the point of paranoia"-part is really pervasive. I'm not trying to upset anyone here, but it's one of those things that's hard to notice unless you have a different perspective (e.g. you're a foreigners, have lived abroad, etc.) A lot of the British seem pretty okay with it shrug

ownagefool 7y ago
The further north you get, the friendlier people are, and the more distrust for Government there is. This however does also include cultural and sectarian divides, so the split isn't as simple as north/south. With that said, I'm Scottish and living near London and find this distasteful. But it's easier to configure a VPN then whine about it, so maybe we're just lazy?

londons_explore 7y ago

This is passive listening to unencrypted data. Anyone could do it. I actually commend them for announcing it. Most businesses just hire an 'analytics' company and end up getting all the same data from their customers without asking.