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IQ, flawed as it may be as a measure, is sometimes touted as one of the best predictors of success in life. It's just conjecture, but maybe there's a feedback l

IQ, flawed as it may be as a measure, is sometimes touted as one of the best predictors of success in life. It's just conjecture, but maybe there's a feedback loop there.

Falling3 7y ago
Zip code is also a very good predictor of success in life. IQ could be a great predictor, but that still doesn't mean it's measuring what we think it's measuring.
- skookumchuck 7y ago
  People aren't randomly assigned zip codes. Zip code can also be a proxy for IQ.
  - Falling3 7y ago
    That seems very unlikely. What seems more unlikely is that both IQ and zip code are proxies for something else.
    - skookumchuck 7y ago
      So you think it "very unlikely" that someone more intelligent would make better decisions, and those decisions have better outcomes enabling someone to live in a pricier neighborhood?
      - objectivetruth 7y ago
        The vast majority of people in a ZIP code are not homeowners or leaseholders. You're neglecting most family members and a plethora of other people that aren't mobile, also that ZIP codes can be incredibly stratified. Households aren't predictable particles in a simulator, either: the real world isn't some SimCity simulation where dumb people go to shitty schools, get shitty jobs, live in shitty neighborhoods and therefore everyone in a shitty neighborhood or shitty job is consequently dumb. I think you're attempting to use ZIP code as a proxy for socioeconomic class, and then presuming a correlation between intelligence and socioeconomic class. It's a really simplistic model that seems intuitive but has a lot of problems if you're using it to judge real live human beings and/or make policy decisions.
      - Spooky23 7y ago
        Rich people don’t have a monopoly on intelligence. I doubt you’d see much correlation between wealth and IQ. Income, yes, but not wealth.
        skookumchuck 7y ago
        I didn't posit they did. But I'd expect a correlation. > Income, yes, but not wealth. Why is that? Wealth is just an accumulation of income.
        Spooky23 7y ago
        You need to be a specialist to be worth a high salary. The dumbest doctor is a smart guy. The worst MLB player was the superstar of his Little League. Many people with high incomes are not wealthy at all -- they have no money. To be wealthy, you just need to have assets and not do dumb things. Wealthy people either inherited it or had a liquidity event. Nobody gets rich via income. There is some intelligence involved in the liquidity part, but also alot of luck. If you have inherited property in NYC in the last 40 years and didn't sell it, you are wealthy. If you operate a McDonald's franchise, you are wealthy, and probably are of average intelligence.
        skookumchuck 7y ago
        > Nobody gets rich via income. 85% of American millionaires are self-made (i.e. first generation). "The Millionaire Next Door" https://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Next-Door-Surprising-Americas/dp/1589795474 https://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Next-Door-Surprising-Amer...
        Spooky23 7y ago
        The vast majority of that is retirement savings, and the number of those folks has ballooned as defined benefit pensions have been discontinued.
        7y ago
      - Falling3 7y ago
        Well first, we're talking about the zip code one is raised in not the zip code one ends up in later in life. Second, we're discussing the efficacy of IQ as an actual measure of intelligence. You're assuming IQ is a good measure of intelligence in order to prove IQ is a good measure of intelligence. Sure, zip codes are a proxy for IQ if we accept that IQs test something other than just intelligence. Finally, the causal relationship you have set up between intelligence and quality of living situation, while undoubtedly true to _some_ extent, ignores everything we know about system racism, system sexism, our horrific healthcare system and a host of other factors that complicate this idea - at least in the US.
- xyzzyz 7y ago
  IQ works just as well within families as it does between them, meaning that it predicts difference in success even between children in the same family.
  - Falling3 7y ago
    You could likely make the same case for zip codes when children and parents are raised in different ones.
- sunshinelackof 7y ago
  I'm not going to claim that IQ quantitatively describes some useful aspect of individuals. I'm not trying to justify a natural aristocracy. Moreso if we actually did identify this relationship between long term success and high IQ scores then maybe we can identify paths to success through other measures. Again more conjecture, but maybe IQ has more to do with concentration and abstract thinking. If there were a relationship between wealth and childhood trauma/stress that could impair abstract thinking, it would make a good case for policies designed to prevent childhood trauma, in particular those brought on by poverty.

IQ, flawed as it may be as a measure, is sometimes touted as one of the best predictors of success in life. It's just conjecture, but maybe there's a feedback loop there.

Falling3 7y ago

Zip code is also a very good predictor of success in life. IQ could be a great predictor, but that still doesn't mean it's measuring what we think it's measuring.

skookumchuck 7y ago
People aren't randomly assigned zip codes. Zip code can also be a proxy for IQ.
- Falling3 7y ago
  That seems very unlikely. What seems more unlikely is that both IQ and zip code are proxies for something else.
  - skookumchuck 7y ago
    So you think it "very unlikely" that someone more intelligent would make better decisions, and those decisions have better outcomes enabling someone to live in a pricier neighborhood?
    - objectivetruth 7y ago
      The vast majority of people in a ZIP code are not homeowners or leaseholders. You're neglecting most family members and a plethora of other people that aren't mobile, also that ZIP codes can be incredibly stratified. Households aren't predictable particles in a simulator, either: the real world isn't some SimCity simulation where dumb people go to shitty schools, get shitty jobs, live in shitty neighborhoods and therefore everyone in a shitty neighborhood or shitty job is consequently dumb. I think you're attempting to use ZIP code as a proxy for socioeconomic class, and then presuming a correlation between intelligence and socioeconomic class. It's a really simplistic model that seems intuitive but has a lot of problems if you're using it to judge real live human beings and/or make policy decisions.
    - Spooky23 7y ago
      Rich people don’t have a monopoly on intelligence. I doubt you’d see much correlation between wealth and IQ. Income, yes, but not wealth.
      - skookumchuck 7y ago
        I didn't posit they did. But I'd expect a correlation. > Income, yes, but not wealth. Why is that? Wealth is just an accumulation of income.
        Spooky23 7y ago
        You need to be a specialist to be worth a high salary. The dumbest doctor is a smart guy. The worst MLB player was the superstar of his Little League. Many people with high incomes are not wealthy at all -- they have no money. To be wealthy, you just need to have assets and not do dumb things. Wealthy people either inherited it or had a liquidity event. Nobody gets rich via income. There is some intelligence involved in the liquidity part, but also alot of luck. If you have inherited property in NYC in the last 40 years and didn't sell it, you are wealthy. If you operate a McDonald's franchise, you are wealthy, and probably are of average intelligence.
        skookumchuck 7y ago
        > Nobody gets rich via income. 85% of American millionaires are self-made (i.e. first generation). "The Millionaire Next Door" https://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Next-Door-Surprising-Americas/dp/1589795474 https://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Next-Door-Surprising-Amer...
        Spooky23 7y ago
        The vast majority of that is retirement savings, and the number of those folks has ballooned as defined benefit pensions have been discontinued.
        7y ago
    - Falling3 7y ago
      Well first, we're talking about the zip code one is raised in not the zip code one ends up in later in life. Second, we're discussing the efficacy of IQ as an actual measure of intelligence. You're assuming IQ is a good measure of intelligence in order to prove IQ is a good measure of intelligence. Sure, zip codes are a proxy for IQ if we accept that IQs test something other than just intelligence. Finally, the causal relationship you have set up between intelligence and quality of living situation, while undoubtedly true to _some_ extent, ignores everything we know about system racism, system sexism, our horrific healthcare system and a host of other factors that complicate this idea - at least in the US.
xyzzyz 7y ago
IQ works just as well within families as it does between them, meaning that it predicts difference in success even between children in the same family.
- Falling3 7y ago
  You could likely make the same case for zip codes when children and parents are raised in different ones.
sunshinelackof 7y ago
I'm not going to claim that IQ quantitatively describes some useful aspect of individuals. I'm not trying to justify a natural aristocracy. Moreso if we actually did identify this relationship between long term success and high IQ scores then maybe we can identify paths to success through other measures. Again more conjecture, but maybe IQ has more to do with concentration and abstract thinking. If there were a relationship between wealth and childhood trauma/stress that could impair abstract thinking, it would make a good case for policies designed to prevent childhood trauma, in particular those brought on by poverty.