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I respectfully disagree that waning respect for America in this context illustrates what you say it does. Chinese culture is fundamentally opposed to American c

by siedes 7y ago

I respectfully disagree that waning respect for America in this context illustrates what you say it does. Chinese culture is fundamentally opposed to American culture, and those things you mention, open democracy, religious and cultural tolerance, etc. are expressions of American culture. What nations like China and various others respect about America is money, and how to make a lot of it even at the expense of American people and industry, all while laughing at how we live our lives and making a mockery of us. As a person of Asian descent and having lived amongst other non-American groups, I can say most do not want to live like Americans at all and often spit on "western values". They love our money but they don't give a damn about our democracy and cultural tolerance. Hate to say it, but it's for the most part accurate.

homarp 7y ago
but isn't that the first generation only ?
mycall 7y ago
If they spit on our western values, what do they love and embrace instead (aside from money)? I would think there are many universal values shared which is why our peoples are quite compatible.
sho 7y ago
> Hate to say it, but it's for the most part accurate I hate to say it too, but statements such as yours, filled with sweeping generalisations, oversimplifications and us-vs-them outgroup nonsense like they want to "spit on our values" usually turn out to be very very far from accurate, and indeed say more about the speaker than the subject at hand. Chip on your shoulder much? I'd like to think - and have generally observed - that 99% of people from anywhere are not in fact greedy sociopaths, but instead decent people trying to live good lives inside their own cultural and economic context.
- siedes 7y ago
  For the good of the world, I hope you are right. I admit I did get a bit too passioniate in the earlier post.
  - sho 7y ago
    Believe me I am no blind fan of China and its foreign policy. You just sound like you've never met any Chinese person, ever. If you had, your opinions would be.. tempered. Nuance isn't an option these days. You're either 100% for something, or 100% against it - or you're an enemy. It's killing any form of discussion. Just so you know, I've been downvoted to hell for my rebuttal to you. Turns out the useful idiots all have computers, and HN accounts. China is the new hyperpower, like it or not. It's more than 4x larger than the legacy contender. The Chinese know it. The Americans are in denial. But no fear, downvoting makes everything go away..
    - AFascistWorld 7y ago
      You failed to understand that at least majority of people who engage in economic activities are greedy. This is also what communists deny the most and why they always fail.
      - sho 7y ago
        > You failed to understand that at least majority of people who engage in economic activities are greedy. This is also what communists deny the most why they always fail. This makes no sense at all, and is an argument against capitalists at least as much as communists. Up your game if you want to convince anyone of anything.
    - dang 7y ago
      Crossing into personal attack is not acceptable here, regardless of what appeared in another comment. Please review the site guidelines and don't post like that to HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Please note that going on about downvoting also breaks the guidelines, as does generic ranting about "useful idiots". We're trying for (much!) higher level of discussion quality than this. If you wouldn't mind helping out with that in the future, we'd be grateful.
      - sho 7y ago
ardit33 7y ago
I disagree with you. Having some really close friends (either first gen, or second/gen, born here), i'd say their values are pretty western overall, with a dose of 'immigrant mentality', which honestly is not much different than immigrants from poorer European nations. Sure, they go back home to visit, and they don't want to go back and live in China. On the other hand, I have met few folks that defend the Communist party, and the values of an autocratic government, and these people were almost all late comer (they came in the US for masters, or later in life), and still on some kind of visa. So, given enough time, and a green card the overall attitude changes a lot, and makes folks value the US lifestyle more. As for second and third gen, the well educated ones are all very Americanized.
east2west 7y ago
You must be trying to be facetious because you are providing an excellent example of an Asian intolerant, closed minded, and prejudicial. You are mouthing the worst propaganda of Chinese Communist, that Chinese culture is not suited for democracy. Chinese want democracy and rule of law every bit as Americans, maybe more so because they suffer under misrule every day. Daily interactions with the outside world may not bring democracy today but they make Communist lies a little harder to maintain, a lot more expensive to enforce, which in a today's tight budget environment -- as a struggling economy must bring -- becomes yet another argument to relax control. The draconian measures and civil unrest of "Cultural Revolution" are unimaginable today precisely because of greater economic freedom and online communication; the people simply will not tolerate it. Western values have permeated the society long ago. The hottest IPO of the day is a Chinese emulator of Starbucks selling coffee; how like Americans do you want the Chinese be?
- dang 7y ago
  Please do not engage in nationalistic flamewar here even if another comment went there first. Having this site not burn in flames requires users to resist being provoked and stay within the site guidelines themselves. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
equalunique 7y ago
My family includes Indonesian, Philippine, Thai, Vietnamese, Cambodian, and Cantonese folks. Prosperity is the core reason they are interested in the United States, and to that reason those "western values" are just ancillary.
dang 7y ago
Sorry, but you can't use HN for nationalistic flamewar, and statements like these are way over the line: Chinese culture is fundamentally opposed to American culture laughing at how we live our lives and making a mockery of us spit on "western values" I appreciate that your background and personal experiences may give you a special perspective on China-related topics, but you need to share that with others in a much more neutral way if you want to post about this here. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19951595 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19951595 and marked it off-topic.

by siedes 7y ago

homarp 7y ago

but isn't that the first generation only ?

mycall 7y ago

If they spit on our western values, what do they love and embrace instead (aside from money)? I would think there are many universal values shared which is why our peoples are quite compatible.

sho 7y ago

> Hate to say it, but it's for the most part accurate I hate to say it too, but statements such as yours, filled with sweeping generalisations, oversimplifications and us-vs-them outgroup nonsense like they want to "spit on our values" usually turn out to be very very far from accurate, and indeed say more about the speaker than the subject at hand. Chip on your shoulder much? I'd like to think - and have generally observed - that 99% of people from anywhere are not in fact greedy sociopaths, but instead decent people trying to live good lives inside their own cultural and economic context.

siedes 7y ago
For the good of the world, I hope you are right. I admit I did get a bit too passioniate in the earlier post.
- sho 7y ago
  Believe me I am no blind fan of China and its foreign policy. You just sound like you've never met any Chinese person, ever. If you had, your opinions would be.. tempered. Nuance isn't an option these days. You're either 100% for something, or 100% against it - or you're an enemy. It's killing any form of discussion. Just so you know, I've been downvoted to hell for my rebuttal to you. Turns out the useful idiots all have computers, and HN accounts. China is the new hyperpower, like it or not. It's more than 4x larger than the legacy contender. The Chinese know it. The Americans are in denial. But no fear, downvoting makes everything go away..
  - AFascistWorld 7y ago
    You failed to understand that at least majority of people who engage in economic activities are greedy. This is also what communists deny the most and why they always fail.
    - sho 7y ago
      > You failed to understand that at least majority of people who engage in economic activities are greedy. This is also what communists deny the most why they always fail. This makes no sense at all, and is an argument against capitalists at least as much as communists. Up your game if you want to convince anyone of anything.
  - dang 7y ago
    Crossing into personal attack is not acceptable here, regardless of what appeared in another comment. Please review the site guidelines and don't post like that to HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Please note that going on about downvoting also breaks the guidelines, as does generic ranting about "useful idiots". We're trying for (much!) higher level of discussion quality than this. If you wouldn't mind helping out with that in the future, we'd be grateful.
    - sho 7y ago

ardit33 7y ago

I disagree with you. Having some really close friends (either first gen, or second/gen, born here), i'd say their values are pretty western overall, with a dose of 'immigrant mentality', which honestly is not much different than immigrants from poorer European nations. Sure, they go back home to visit, and they don't want to go back and live in China. On the other hand, I have met few folks that defend the Communist party, and the values of an autocratic government, and these people were almost all late comer (they came in the US for masters, or later in life), and still on some kind of visa. So, given enough time, and a green card the overall attitude changes a lot, and makes folks value the US lifestyle more. As for second and third gen, the well educated ones are all very Americanized.

east2west 7y ago

You must be trying to be facetious because you are providing an excellent example of an Asian intolerant, closed minded, and prejudicial. You are mouthing the worst propaganda of Chinese Communist, that Chinese culture is not suited for democracy. Chinese want democracy and rule of law every bit as Americans, maybe more so because they suffer under misrule every day. Daily interactions with the outside world may not bring democracy today but they make Communist lies a little harder to maintain, a lot more expensive to enforce, which in a today's tight budget environment -- as a struggling economy must bring -- becomes yet another argument to relax control. The draconian measures and civil unrest of "Cultural Revolution" are unimaginable today precisely because of greater economic freedom and online communication; the people simply will not tolerate it. Western values have permeated the society long ago. The hottest IPO of the day is a Chinese emulator of Starbucks selling coffee; how like Americans do you want the Chinese be?

dang 7y ago
Please do not engage in nationalistic flamewar here even if another comment went there first. Having this site not burn in flames requires users to resist being provoked and stay within the site guidelines themselves. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

equalunique 7y ago

My family includes Indonesian, Philippine, Thai, Vietnamese, Cambodian, and Cantonese folks. Prosperity is the core reason they are interested in the United States, and to that reason those "western values" are just ancillary.

dang 7y ago

Sorry, but you can't use HN for nationalistic flamewar, and statements like these are way over the line: Chinese culture is fundamentally opposed to American culture laughing at how we live our lives and making a mockery of us spit on "western values" I appreciate that your background and personal experiences may give you a special perspective on China-related topics, but you need to share that with others in a much more neutral way if you want to post about this here. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19951595 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19951595 and marked it off-topic.